Ep. 43: Changing The Way You Think About Identity, Success, and Money in the Music Biz with Holly Hansen

Stephen: Welcome to secrets from the scene. My name is Stephen Helvig and I'm your host. If this is your first time joining, thank you so much for tuning in and checking it out. This podcast is all about, Minnesota music and our local scene here. The podcast aim is to help people navigate the scene from the recording stuff to songwriting, to finding your community, promotional tactics. you name it. Anything that goes along with the artist journey we talk about in this podcast. If you are, [00:01:00] Thanks for coming back. Today's episode, episode 42, I believe we're on. it's going to be a good one. I'm excited to get Holly Hansen here as our guest today. She is the owner of Salon Sonics in Northeast Minneapolis and, is a multi talented writer, artist, producer, mixer, and probably a few other hats is, is normal per our kind of career. And I'm going to read her bio is a great intro to, to get things started, but today's conversation, we're going to talk about salon Sonics and Holly's background with her band zoo animal and all of that. But, we're also going to talk about the broader conversation of finding your identity, defining what success is and how money impacts all of that along the way. it's going to be an interesting conversation. I'm excited to dive into it because. One of the things that we talked about previous to this conversation was how little money is talked about ultimately, but how important it is to everything that we do. So, let's dive into this bio. The owner of salon Sonics, Holly Hanson is an acclaimed [00:02:00] musician, producer, and audio engineer, as well as the artist behind the band zoo animal zoo animal grew from a solo songwriting project to a fully fledged heavy gigging band and put out three records between 2008 and 2012 to critical and popular acclaim. She's toured extensively and performed alongside artists, such as Damien, Gerardo, why Oak, Scott niblet trampled by turtles and low among many others. She was named city pages artist of the year in 2011 and best live artist in 2012 and was the feature of a 30 minute PBS documentary, Holly Hanson, my way back home. She's the recipient of a Minnesota emerging composer award from the American composers forum in 2017 and was named one of the nine queer musicians to watch in 2020 by twin cities pride magazine. in addition to her extensive performing and recording career, she has over 20 years experience as a live sound and recording engineer. She regularly teaches audio workshops for often marginalized artists to share her knowledge and create a safe space for learning in an often intimidating industry [00:03:00] dominated by white cisgender men. Please welcome Holly Hansen. Holly: thanks for having me. Stephen: Thanks for being here. Holly: Yeah. Happy to be here. Stephen: It's nice to meet in person. I've heard your name in the audio circles, for many years. And, I've known of your band as well. that's one of the cool things about this podcast is I finally get to like, hang out with people that I've, I've respected and known for such a long time. So thanks for doing this. Holly: Absolutely. Happy to see your place too. Stephen: Well, I always start these episodes out with like, [00:04:00] kind of going through your background in history. So people have context of, what you've been up to. Holly: Yeah. my background, I've always loved engineering like I think I like sound before I liked music You know I have that classic like playing pots and pans when you're young and I Got in trouble once for poking holes in the Naga hide stools with this pencil because I like the way it sounded stuff like that. You know, I've always just been like really in tune with what I'm hearing. anyways, born in Orlando, Florida, moved to San Antonio, Texas, moved to Coquitlam, Minnesota, moved to Portland, Oregon, moved to Minneapolis, and then I was there and that's kind of where I found my footing, went to sound art school at MCTC, which I highly recommend. I loved going there. It was a wonderful experience. Met my wife there. and. I actually got an internship at the 331 club through that, which, you know, when I first started there, I was imagining my internship being somewhere like, you know, like pachyderm or the terrarium or something like that. Um, I was thinking [00:05:00] of recording, but I ended up getting kind of side, side swiped into live sound. But what ended up happening is I feel like I can trace every music connection I have back to that Stephen: sure. Holly: Like, I met so many people through doing Live Sound, and even just becoming, you know, Jarrett and John Ullman own that club and there have been multiple opportunities they've given me just because we had a great working relationship, hosted Tuesday Early Evening, also known as T. And that was a great experience. And the only reason I was able to do that was cause Jarrett trusted me with this weird idea I had of an early show, you know, this was before COVID. So it wasn't as popular. And he was like, you know what, let's try it. It was bingo before, which is an easier sell, you know, trivia nights or something. But anyway, he let me do that. And it was so fun. COVID kind of. Ended that. But, um, yeah, so I was playing in zoo animal doing live sound. And there was this very specific moment where I actually was down to in a vocal session [00:06:00] for a band at pachyderm. And I had this moment where I was looking around and I was like, if the engineer had to leave, I could take over. Like, I understand how all this works. And that was a moment speaking of that identity thing where I was like, I don't call myself an engineer. Like, why don't I do that? And. I think there's kind of this, at least for myself, I feel like I'm waiting for someone else to tell me I'm something before I like claim that I'm that, like, I need some sort of validation, but the truth is like, no one knows that you even are that unless you say something. So that was sort of like a catalyst for me where I was like, I need to start. Getting back in the studio and, also, I mean, I've had plenty of good experiences recording, but there was just some, there was a few times where it was like, you know, the guy recording me when I was very vulnerable, meaning like I didn't know that much. And I had these very heartfelt songs and he just seemed like pissed all the time and annoyed that I was there. And I was just like, I really would love to make a place where people feel like I knew they were coming [00:07:00] and they're comfortable. And like, it feels like their space just as much as it feels like mine. So I just all of a sudden got, like, super highly motivated to create a space like that, and that's what Salon Sonics became. and speaking of money, there's, like, numerous reasons why that was able to happen. one, two, two reasons. I was a software engineer for a few years, so I was making pretty good money. And I was like buying up gear like crazy. So that was one thing. And then we actually were taking care of my mother in law's or my mother in law while she was sick. And so we had very low living costs for a little bit. That kind of was like this horrible thing that was going on, but it's like, that's why we had to talk about money because if someone doesn't know those facts about how salon became what it is, it's like. I didn't go out and get a business loan, you know, and start doing this thing. It's like there's this weird little, I feel like almost anyone who works in the studio world is like, had this weird way of getting there where it's like, [00:08:00] if these three very specific things didn't happen, there's no way I could be doing this for a living. Stephen: Yeah. All right. We're definitely going to get into that more later, but I have a few questions before we do. first of all, when you went to MCTC, that was your goal was ultimately to get into like the tech side of stuff. Holly: I mean, I definitely always wanted to make my own music, but the idea of like working in a studio was like, that would be the Stephen: That was the, Holly: I would love that. Yeah. Stephen: And then how long were you an intern with three, three, one? Holly: It's hard to know because right after my internship ended, I just started working there. So I probably worked at 331 as a sound engineer, gosh, off and on for, I don't know, like five years. And then I worked at the 501 club and then I worked at Amsterdam bar. Those are all John and Jared Oldman stuff. So, Yeah, the, the relationship is still there even, I feel like, I, I feel like they're kind of an open door, and I think they do that with a lot of people they work with, you know. Once you've worked with the Ullmans, you're [00:09:00] kind of in the family. Stephen: Got it. All right. And so your internship was at, was for live sound Yep. Yep. cool. and then that transitioned into a job opportunity by doing live sound. You make tons of connections. Holly: you also learn to be very fast. Like I've learned, I've realized that a lot of clients are like, you're so fast. And I'm like, what? I like, I don't feel like I'm fast, but because most of my life was live sound, like you don't have time. You're just in. Yeah. So anyways. Stephen: Yeah. No playing around. Yeah. Holly: you just get figure out what the heck isn't working. Stephen: So when you started doing live sound, were you always doing some studio work on the side? Like, okay, when did salon Sonic start then? Holly: let's see. I, so I rented a mixed room first. and I was kind of doing that with my friend Peter Bregman at first. So it was like, he, he had more equipment than me. So it was like a deal where these kinds of things happen a lot too. It was like his equipment and I paid rent. Stephen: Mm hmm. Holly: and then I bought some more equipment and [00:10:00] then he ended up not really wanting to use the space that much. So I just like took it over and just use my equipment and bought some of his, I think that was like, geez, what's my like 2019 something like that? I know it was before COVID because I was like, Oh, shoot. This is a bad time to be starting a recording studio since nobody can come here. So it must've been 2019. Stephen: Okay, and where was that first location? Holly: That was in the Vandalia tower building, which is how I know why Overman we were neighbors there for a little bit. in St. Paul. Stephen: Got it. And now you're in Northeast. Holly: Yes. Which is kind of my home. Cause I've lived there since 2010. So yeah. Yeah. Stephen: And is that space solely yours at this point? Holly: I, I mean, I have other, there's other engineers who work out of there, but I'm kind of like the one it's all mostly my gear and I'm the one managing it and all that stuff. But there, and it's in case anyone wants to know, it's very open to other engineers working out [00:11:00] of it. It's happening more and more. And I love it because I, I don't want it to be my layer. You know, I want it to feel like a community space. So Stephen: that's great. okay, you mentioned you worked as a software engineer for a few years, but you're not anymore. Okay, is Salon Sonics your main thing? Holly: Yes, that's the only that's like how I make my living. Yeah. Stephen: tell me about the software engineer days. What were you doing? Exactly? Holly: I worked for my cousin's cousin for a little bit doing JavaScript front end. And then I worked for a company downtown for a little bit. I worked at 3am twice. thanks to Peter Bregman, who was the person I had that other mixed room with. Yeah, I actually I liked it. It actually came from I worked at chase bliss for when it was just kind of new I worked there when it was still in joel cordy's basement and it was just three of us and I remember I was making a lot of spreadsheets. I've always been kind of a numbers person I just I like that whole world. I love spreadsheets Kind of why I started getting into it was because I was making these spreadsheets for joel And I was kind of doing some problem solving in my [00:12:00] head and I was like gosh, I wish I could make this connected to this You And do this thing automatically. And I was like, this is kind of what coding is. And so that was like my, I think I should look into this. And then I went to Prime Digital Academy and went from there. It's something I still actually kind of, I do enjoy. Like I love logic and problem solving. And I feel like that's mostly that and Googling. I feel like is pretty much what software engineering is. so it's not like I hated the work really, but I, I have definitely learned That I don't like working for other people very much. Stephen: Yeah, that's that's a problem Holly: Yeah, so. Stephen: Okay, cool How does zoo animal fit into all of this did that start right out of college? Holly: Well, I feel like Zoo Animal was sort of a the branch off of me writing songs starting when I was like 12 years old. the actually like the literal birth of Zoo Animal was because it's the day of my space and I had a [00:13:00] page for my music and unfortunately now the club, we've come to know who the owner is, but Club Jaeger reached out for me to play there and I was like, oh my gosh, a club in the city wants me to play. Which I hadn't really done. I did like some back when that, Astor was on Franklin, I played not the Astor, Acadia was on Franklin. I used to play there sometimes. But anyways, I was like, I got to put a band together. I can't just be like, and so I made up a band, a guy I played at church with who never played bass, Tim Abramson. I said, do you want to play bass? He said, okay. And then I was going to school with, someone named Al Swenson. And he was the first drummer for Zoo Animal. And then we just said, all right, we're a band. Stephen: What's Zoo Animal up to currently? Holly: I don't know. it's funny because I've always had like a lot of different musical workings, you know, in, I never could figure out what Zoo Animal was, especially because at the beginning it was very connected. No matter how hard I tried to make [00:14:00] it not be called a Christian band, it just kept latching on. and now that I'm not Christian, I do also kind of feel like. I kind of hate that there's still this connection there. but we had her like a reunion show with the, with Tim and Tom, who are kind of like the real main people. Cause I've, Zoo Animals had about 20 different people in it. and this is a roundabout way of saying, I have no idea. I have music I want to record and I don't know if I'm just going to release it under my own name, like I did with, I just put out that song Ruby, uh, last year and I'm just sort of trying to figure out how that all works because, Tim, the bass player lives in Milwaukee. Tom lives here, the drummer. but it's like, is Zoo Animal this thing that has a certain aesthetic? Because I don't know where I want to sit. So anyway, I'm kind of working through some of that now, but I do plan to record some music this fall, but I don't know what I'm going to call it. Stephen: Cause you have your own side project now. Holly: Yeah. And I don't even Stephen: Zoo Animal feels like yours anyways, Holly: mean, that's kind of the thing. Like, I feel like some people are like, what's the difference. But I think when I really, when it comes [00:15:00] down to it, for me, Zoo Animal is very interactive, and whoever happened to be in the band at the time, obviously affected the way the songs felt. So I, you know, part of me wants the freedom to be like, I want to make a record where every song's got different people on it because the song, I have a specific way I want this thing to feel. And, you know, especially working in the studio more I realized like as much as two singers sound different two drummers sound different Like there's just a certain kind of thing for a certain kind of thing and like tom drummer from zoo animal. He's freaking awesome I love playing with him what there's like a I feel like i'm at home When I play with tim and tom, it just is so like but it's also a very specific feeling. So I don't even know a question you asked but I'm just, you know, I think I want some freedom of palette, Stephen: maybe this is a stretch, but I feel like there's a little bit of a segue into our identity conversation because to some extent you're struggling with what the [00:16:00] identity of Zoo Animal should Holly: exactly. Which I think I always have. Mm. maybe from an outside perspective, like me, who I didn't know anything that this was Christian affiliated or other members or anything like that, you know? Stephen: So to me, it's like zoo animals, you, it's just your moniker. but for you, you obviously have different, factors playing into that decision. So in terms of like the overall ownership of the band and things like that, that's something that a lot of people struggle with. Holly: Yeah, I think Stephen: especially when there's somebody that's clearly the lead person. maybe the lead person and maybe the solo songwriter and maybe the driving force behind getting gigs and, Holly: yeah, yeah, I definitely learned that, part of why I want to have something explicit and identity in a certain way with that is things get complicated interpersonally, if the expectations aren't clear, because I've definitely run into some of that. so I, I want to be mindful and careful and thoughtful for the people who I'm asking to work on stuff [00:17:00] with me. That we're we have an understanding and they feel cared for and I feel like I am being clear You know, Stephen: Yeah. It's important. We actually did an episode that was really focused in on the sort of band dynamics and stuff. It was episode 36 with Mike Burrell, how creative teams get things done. and we really dive into those things. So this is part of a conversation that you listeners want to dive into it. Definitely check out that episode. let's circle back to. Specifically, your moment at Pachyderm doing that session and deciding, Oh, I needed to just start calling myself an engineer, like that that was a catalyst to really kick off your career. I've heard other similar revelations from people that struggle with it. What point do I get to call myself Holly: Yeah Stephen: What are your thoughts on that? Holly: Whenever it's what you want to do. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, if you've recorded yourself at home on GarageBand, you're a recording engineer because you've engineered a recording. I think you don't want to call yourself a [00:18:00] recording engineer for hire if you don't have the skills and you're going to disappoint someone, obviously it's not like, You know, don't be trying to fool people, but, I mean, even for, for me, I, I would even say like, I love to play drums and I'm not a drummer, but that's because I don't want people to assume I'm a drummer. Cause I am definitely not for hire. Cause I'm not that great at it. I just love it. So I think it's like, it's not only if you do it, but it's yeah, it's like, do you want to be considered that? Is that something you want to pursue? I mean, I haven't think about that. I've had a few people who are sort of like, have shadowed me somewhat and I'm, I'm trying to weigh about how, how to have mentors or mentees, I guess, um, and interns. And I'm like, it's really hard to invest in that with someone who isn't identifying that way because, You sort of have to grab it and say I'm this or it's just not gonna light on fire maybe that's kind of it is like do you want this thing to light on fire? then say it say that's what you are it definitely it doesn't come from [00:19:00] external validation. It comes from what is your desire? and even in that way, if people are calling you something and you don't want to be called it, well, change the conversation then, Stephen: think there's clarity inwardly and outwardly from trying to speak what you want your identity to be. Stephen: as you mentioned, obviously, We do see examples where people will claim to be something that they're clearly not very good at, or aren't really putting much time into, you know, in fact, it reminds me of another conversation with Sarah Morris was saying at one point she was calling herself a songwriter. Wasn't really writing many songs. And so Holly: love Sarah Stephen: and so, yeah, she's great. And so that was a catalyst for her to be like, you know what I need to do? I need to change this. If I want to identify as a songwriter, I need to be writing songs. And I think that that's a little bit of where some of this fear comes with personally is like, Oh, what's the threshold where we feel like we're doing enough? And the truth of that is it's different for everybody. and you're always going to be [00:20:00] judged for it no matter what you can't stop other external people from judging. That's that's that's just part of living. So I do think that it's that there is clarification when you say, this is what I want to do. And then just make sure that your time and priorities match up with that. Are you spending time doing these things? Um, And I, yeah. And I think that whole fear thing is huge. I think that's why a lot of people don't claim something. It's like that whole, that frozen moment where you, if I don't do anything, I can't fail. You know, if I never mix a record, then I can't do a bad job of mixing a record. that frozen space is very real and sometimes hard to get around. Holly: I also remember I do a bit of journaling and. I remember another epiphany I had that's somewhat in this vein that I was like, I think I wrote down, I said something like, I'm not good enough to take it seriously. And then I was like, wait a minute. I have that backwards. if I become serious, I'll become good. Stephen: definitely. Right. Holly: you, you can't wait to be good to be serious about it. It's like, [00:21:00] duh. But it was just like, oh my gosh, this is, I've been thinking this way. Stephen: Yeah, it's complicated you know, I think about my own journey of diving in and like, I'm going to create a business and like, I really had no idea what I was doing and I wasn't very good at it. I wanted to do it and I was, I didn't have so much of a problem of calling myself an engineer because it was like, yeah, I mean, I can, I can get sounds down, I can do this. but I think that there's always that fear of, but am I any good at this? Like, will people take me seriously? And that's for. That's for producers and engineers for, you know, live or studio. That's for also for artists, of course, Holly: Yeah. Stephen: but to some extent there is no avoiding progress. you don't get to start being the best at it, at least for most of us mere mortals. Yeah. Holly: even if you're going to pivot a little, because that's kind of me, I feel like I pivoted, even though I was, I've always kind of been pursuing [00:22:00] sound engineering. I just wasn't explicit about that. you, you do worry. That because you had some notoriety, you know, like a zoo animal, and then if I start doing records, people will be even harsher because they'll almost expect a certain thing, which I was trying to live up to. And I hope I did in a certain way, but, you just have to do the work and you just have to give it what you can. And also know that even when you're starting out, the thing you have no one else has is your own freaking ears. Your own context, your own way of doing things. So like, even if you listen to someone else's mix and it's technically better, there might be something about what you're doing that has its own special thing. You know? And I think, especially in the world of engineers. I think we think about other engineers too much. You know, like we're thinking about what engineers will think when they hear our records, not what listeners, you know, not everybody. I just, I, I hear [00:23:00] that from other people. And I feel that myself, like I'm thinking about all the other engineers who are going to talk about how I process the mids on that base. Like what's the energy. That's what matters. Cool. Stephen: much agree with that. And I think also like on the artist side too, there's a lot of fear of, you know, I work with a lot of people that are making their first records and there's a client of mine now, a young girl that is, her record is going to come out, I think maybe this Friday or something, and it'll be your first DP. And she's very much like, pretty scared about it. Right. And like, well, you know, what are you going to be able to say? And like, so there's some pretty vulnerable songwriting. There's, lot of reasons to feel like this is tough to do. And the conversation a lot has been like her asking me. Like, well, what do you think? And what do you think? And I'm like, it doesn't matter what I think. I think it's cool that you did this. I think it's good that you're putting things out. I think you should be proud of where you're at today. Holly: Yes. Stephen: Now, In a few years, if she sticks with [00:24:00] this, will she look back at this project and go Holly: not my best work,Yeah, at the time it was. Stephen: time it was. And I think that that's, that's what I'm getting at, because I've also had that feeling. If I look at this early stuff, I either recorded as an engineer produced or as an artist. I mean, it's laughably bad. It's Holly: I was My mom I saw like my cd from high school on the table the other day and I was like Can you just Stephen: Heh, heh, Holly: that. Like I really don't any I don't want anyone to ever hear that like oh boy, but it's like Good job holly because if you wouldn't have made that cd you wouldn't be where you Stephen: Exactly. And I think that, because a lot of our issues when it comes to identity is we can't help but compare, right. And, and see what else is going on. And so it's like, okay, well, if I'm going to call myself a producer, if I'm going to call myself an engineer, I need to be at least this tall, you know, and they're looking at their friend, maybe that might have a little headstart on [00:25:00] them or somebody else that's just. Naturally, really good at something or, you know, any number of things and going, okay, well, if I'm not there, can I really say this? Holly: Yeah, I feel like it, I don't know if I would say like competition is good, but I'm really glad our town has a bunch of great engineers because I do think it's good to raise your own bar constantly, you know? And so, like, I feel like with that comparison thing, it's not about going like, don't look, it's like, oh, wow, they're doing that really well. I want to strive for that. Like that whole, like letting it help you strive for something better is so great. And it's, it's inspiration Stephen: that's, that's the healthiest, best way to look at that and what we all should aspire to. It's easier said than done, of course, but, what so often can happen is it just then defeats you. You hear, you see that where it's like that feels out of reach or somebody looks at your work today and. You know, maybe there's a young [00:26:00] girl that wants to like get in and looking at you as a role model and going, yeah, but her work is so much better than what I'm capable of doing. And it's like, yeah, but Holly: probably better than me when I was that Stephen: Exactly. I have that conversation a lot of like, man, sure. But like where you're at versus where I was at at that time, you're so much further ahead. A lot of it is persistence and the willingness to put yourself out Holly: Yeah. Persistence is a good word for anything in art, Stephen: I think when it comes to being, whether it's on the artist front, you have to just give yourself some grace and be okay with no matter if like, if you're proud of it now put it out, you can always take something down if you want, you know, put it out and move because If you keep waiting for that external validation or when you think it's going to be good enough, you may not get there because there is something important about releasing it and saying, okay, it's done because there's the people that will hold onto it, just trying to make it better forever. Nah, it's done. Put it out [00:27:00] because they might be getting better at a pace where they can already tell it's not that good. Holly: right, Stephen: And well, okay. Sometimes you can just scrap those and move on to the next one. But sometimes I think, you know what? There's a lot of people out in the world and some people might love that. Just put it out and move on. Holly: yeah, and there's that, it's funny that balance of in the grand scheme of things, it's not that important and yet when you're making it, it should feel very important because that's what you're doing. So like, feel free to dive right in and just, but I think that's, what's a little weird. It's like when you're in the studio, it's kind of your duty in a way to feel like it's the most important thing in the world in that moment. Cause why the heck not? You're there. You might as well just fricking commit. But then as soon as you like, walk out of the studio, you're like, Oh, Ah, yes, the real world where that thing I just did, maybe isn't a big deal. Stephen: It's hard to hold those two Holly: Yeah, but, but if you can manage to balance them, I think it really relieves the pressure [00:28:00] and allows you more creative freedom cause I think experimentation is wonderful too. So I think being able to feel like a lack of pressure from like, but this is so important that if I mess it up, I'll ruin something. It's like, you're not going to ruin anything. you're good. Like, just try it out. So, but those are, those are definitely like myself included. I'm like, this like literally doesn't matter. Stephen: It's Holly: does. It does matter. But it, you know, I guess it's just about like, put it in its place and enjoy it for what it is and let it, let it breathe. Stephen: there's a time to hold tight and there's a time to let go. the balance between the two, you have to have both. for it to be healthy. And it's just a matter of deciding what part of that process you're in. it's a tough conversation to have because there's no black and white in any of this for anyone. All we can really do is say that. It's okay to claim your ground, to claim your identity. try to keep a growth mindset. And that simply just [00:29:00] means like that you're, you're not looking ahead to somebody else and measuring against what they're doing. You're looking at your own progress. Are you getting better at this? Holly: are you creating a life where you like your day to day? Because I think sometimes people get too focused on the product and they don't think about the life they're living, you know? I'm constantly trying to get my day to day to be what I want it to be. And I think if you can focus on that and your community and relationships, I mean, you have to focus somewhat on obviously the project as an artist, that's what you're doing. But when you're thinking about your career and your identity and things like that, I feel like people don't think about like, what are you doing every day? And are you going to like it? Like even sometimes when people get into engineering and they want to be like a small business owner or something, I'm like, okay, just know that you can't book out 40 hours because you'll be working 70 because there's a lot more than just recording like so much more. want people to think about. Like, if you think you're going to get into this, like, [00:30:00] Really understand what the day to day is. Money Convo --- [00:31:00] [00:32:00] Stephen: Yeah. And I think that is a great segue into the money conversation ultimately, because on that topic, it's like, okay, well, what do you want your life to be? And so I want to travel all the time and I want to have this and that. And it's like, well, that all that takes a lot of money. So what kind of job do you want? Holly: Yeah. Either makes a lot of money or makes you travel, but if you're going to have that kind of job, then you maybe aren't going to have a family and you're going to have a different style of relationships because you're not going to be in people's routines. So it's like, it's a lot to think about. Stephen: you know, one of the things that came up when we were on the conversation was, yeah, people just don't really talk about money very often when it comes to that. Now, culturally, that's just the thing here in our entire Holly: Unless you're bragging about it, then it's totally fine to talk [00:33:00] about it. Stephen: Unless you have a lot of it. Yeah. I will say personally that I've tried to have some of those conversations a little bit more and it's doesn't go over Holly: It's really personal. I mean, and I think especially in our culture, like, you know, if you were sitting around a dinner table with your friends and you said, Hey, how much do y'all live on a month? It would be so awkward. Stephen: awkward. Yep. Holly: I think why I don't like that so much. I mean, I don't ever want anyone to feel shameful about anything like that, but I think, The people who are taking advantage of people do talk about it it is part of their regular conversation because they want to use it to their advantage. And if we don't talk about it, then we'll be taken advantage of. Especially in art, like, trying to create a sustainable life, if I charge too little, it's gonna psychologically affect me in a way that will actually make my mixes suffer. So, I need to charge something that's sustainable so that when my clients come to me, I'm able [00:34:00] to provide what they're asking for. And if somebody wants, like, a cheaper rate, I'm going to realize I can give less resources then. Do I really want to engage in this art with less resources? and it's hard in this day and age because, I feel like, This is also not talked about much. being the band is the hardest job. You make the least amount of money. It's not sustainable. everyone's trying to take advantage of you. And I think even in that way, that's what I'm saying. Talk about money because you know, these record labels and booking agencies and record, like studio owners, we're talking about money because we're trying to run a sustainable business. And I think at this point, the assumption is if you're an artist, it's not sustainable. So then it's just like, well, whatever, I guess I'll just save up for my day job and make a record because there's no way I'm going to make money at this. And I'm like, well, I think if we start talking about it more, then it becomes more of the conversation. Then even, you know, people who aren't artists will start understanding this sucks for [00:35:00] artists. I'm glad it's become more accepted to do like album fundraisers and things like that. But I wish that wasn't necessary. I don't want artists to be scared of money. things. conversation. Stephen: I wanted to stay on specifically like our assumptions about money and, and why we don't talk about it. I think that part of it is cultural, as I mentioned before, that it's just, it's awkward. there's two sides, I think one, sometimes there's the feeling of like, well, if you're not doing well, you may not want to talk about that, of course. Holly: Yeah. Stephen: But also if you are doing well, you may not want to talk about Holly: I think that that's very common as well, for Stephen: There is somewhat of a romanticism about being the starving artist and, not caring about the money. That if you do care about the money, then it might. Give the perception that you're not truly good at Holly: I care about time. That's why I care about money because I want time and time means. I get to see my [00:36:00] people I get to write more music I get to do So like when i'm talking about money, i'm like pretty much talking about time because that's what I want I want more time. I don't want more money. So it's like Stephen: I think one of the big advantages of Trying to have more conversations about money, whether that's between you and other colleagues, you know, I, one example could be amongst bands talking a little bit more about what they are getting paid for shows, what to expect, what to say no to, so that there's a better culture around that. If it's among studio owners about what we charge for rates and. How we do that. How do we make that sustainable so that we can provide good services? I think the healthiest thing about that is then just knowing that like, okay, I'm, I'm within target because if you're so much in the dark on stuff, you can end up doing stuff for a lot less than what you might've been able to ask. And then you just feel taken advantage of. Holly: and you maybe don't realize that what you've just charged is actually not sustainable. Stephen: Yeah, I, you know, because we all [00:37:00] love music so much and just getting to do it, even at a loss is sometimes Yeah. We're just like, fine, Holly: I think we'd all say we'd do it for free, but the truth of the matter is, we can't, because we have to live, Stephen: there's also a healthier mindset. If you can actually frame it up of like, this isn't going to be. Full time for me. This is always going to be something on the side. Therefore, This is what my budget is going to be for and this is what I can feel good about spending Because there's an element of if your expectation is never being met because you set your expectations somewhere where it's not reasonable you know what I mean? That just isn't going to happen with, with what you can commit to it in time or resources or whatever. so for instance, I'm thinking like if, if you're a band and you're wanting to turn a profit, depending on what stage your band is at and how much popularity and stuff, but let's just say average local band. If your expectations are to live off of that, you're probably setting it in the wrong spot. it's probably better to think, how [00:38:00] do we not lose money? that would be a better place to start. Holly: Yeah Stephen: would be a big win, Holly: Yeah, and I think that comes to the expectations part too where even with the other bandmates like what are we trying to do? And and it's like it feels kind of dorky It's not just like, let's just live and like do whatever we want. It's like, okay, go ahead. But I, I prefer to live a life in offense, not defense. And I feel a little bit like if you're just kind of like that, you're just bumping around in everyone else's world because you're not being explicit about what you want. And. Yeah, if you want to make a living in music in today's world, this gets back to that day to day thing. there's a reason I'm not really pursuing it that hard because I know what the day to day looks like and I just don't know if I want to do that. Like, I wish I could just make records all the time and play shows, but that's not what being a musician is right now. It's social media, you know? Stephen: that conversation of like, okay, well, how I want to pursue it. isn't going to feed me, then you can at least come to that [00:39:00] conclusion quicker and go, okay, well, what am I going to do for the rent and for the food? And then how do I balance that with this? Instead of constantly chasing the thing, that's not going to yield Holly: Yeah. Yeah, and you just you're right. You just get so disappointed Stephen: obviously some people are very successful and. With their band, they're selling out clubs. They have millions and millions of streams. They're, They're getting brand endorsements on social media. They're doing, you know, all kinds of things. I'm not saying that being in a band means you can't make money. Some people really do and make a lot of it, Mm hmm. a lot of people don't. Holly: Those people who are making money are probably Thinking about money Stephen: Right. Thinking about how they can leverage their assets, which is their social media following their, streaming numbers and those kinds of things to make more money. Now if you don't have those things, you're not owed a whole bunch of money. That's how this works. And so if you're in that place and you're, but you really want to be doing music, your energy could be better spent thinking of how, how do I find the [00:40:00] right balance in my life so I can continue to do the things I Holly: can get really So for anybody that's listening, going, yeah, I am struggling with money and like I need to, you know, this isn't helping. It's just confirming my problems. think there's two things I want to get at. One is that When people come to me and ask me like how to get into things and like, how did you get started? Stephen: Or I want to run a business or that sort of thing. One of my first responses is like, take care of your money first. Don't go and start a business and just go all in. That's personally not, I don't think is the smartest way to do it. I'm more like find, find money, a career that can pay you enough money and leave you enough time so that you can pursue music. That way don't get me wrong. Doing both of those things seriously is going to take up all of your time, but that's the choice you're going to make. And at that point, if you're getting momentum or whether it's, you're getting, you know, as a studio owner on the side, if you're getting enough clients where you want to go full time, great, go do that. Or if you're. your music is taking off and you want to go tour and there's money in [00:41:00] that. Go do that. You can sell some more stuff. Go do that. but make sure that your necessities are taken care of first and foremost. So that's usually my first piece of advice is don't worry about being full time because when you look at other people that are so often, there's more to that story than what you know. There's a hidden partner. There's money from something else that has nothing to do with that actual business. They might own real estate. they might have a partner that is the financial moneymaker in the relationship and what they're doing that you think looks so successful isn't really turning a profit. So a lot of what we're comparing ourselves to isn't exactly accurate. You usually don't have the full picture of that. even a lot of really successful bands that you can look at. If you dig around deep enough, you can find that, well, that one had a lot of money behind it. They didn't need to work and they had time to pursue it. It's not fair, but life isn't fair. This is not, and thinking it should be fair is a mistake too. Like. if those things aren't there [00:42:00] for you, if you don't have those opportunities, Holly: Find a different Stephen: find a different way. Don't, don't go about it thinking that you're a failure because you're trying to do it Holly: Yeah, Stephen: it's not going to work anyways. Holly: Yes. And also every, there is no one way. I mean, even as you were saying like your advice to someone, I was like, I pretty much would say that too, but I've also seen like, a certain type of chaotic person Who just goes for it and it works out even though they were like literally barely eating and Depends what you need. I I had a friend even say I was asking her. She's a successful musician does it full time tours the world and She's like well, I had no plan b And I think sometimes pressure, because you literally need to buy a can of beans, maybe that works for some people, So, you Stephen: And Holly: that, make your own way, exactly. Stephen: to some extent that was my beginnings of like really going all in and living off of pretty much nothing for a long [00:43:00] time. Holly: right. Stephen: but you have to decide, but I also, you know, have a strong family. Like I always had a backup of like, I can move home or I can do something like that. If like, if I, if I'm really in a tough spot, I can do those kinds of things. one of my biggest takeaways that I want from this episode is that it's okay to talk about money. to ask people like, well, how did you actually make this work? you know, it may not happen in a public setting all the time. Again, cause people don't necessarily want to Holly: Yeah, I feel Stephen: information. But I think it's important to know that when you see somebody that's successful, it's not simply because they were better at it Holly: No. And I mean, that's just a bigger conversation about privilege too, because I think even for me, like talking about, yeah, I bought a duplex when I was young because the market was in a freaking basement. If other people don't know that privilege and we don't talk about it, like, I just imagine, like, if a group's talking, and it's become very clear there's a specific person who has not had the same privileges, we're all gonna go, hmm, maybe we should be partaking in giving them privilege. And I think that's part of [00:44:00] why I want to talk about it more, is like, it's not like you want someone to be like, oh, like, let us know you're in need and, and take this like, lower place. It's more just like, wow, y'all got a lot more than I did. That's great for you. And then, you know what I mean? Like, I just think that conversation about money, it is, it's essentially a conversation about privilege too. Stephen: if I don't think about money, I don't think about those things. Holly: And then I don't put myself into position to give that privilege away. And so I feel like that's vital, especially when you're living in community and, you know, the Minnesota music scene is a community to be like almost honestly partaking in it. let's talk about money then. Stephen: okay, well the other, the third leg of this conversation we had, you know, identity, money, but there's also a success, like what does success even mean? And I think that they're all interconnected because. we are looking at something that we think is success. Oh, that [00:45:00] band is on tour. are, they're getting these opportunities. It must be going really well for them. When in fact, that band might be very, very much struggling, Even though they're getting all the opportunities you want, it's not sustainable. Because we don't actually know what the money thing looks like behind it. We're just mostly concerned about the identity piece of it, and we want that to be our identity, but the money doesn't work out. And what we think is success actually isn't going to be longterm. All three of those are part of the conversation. And so we've kind of mentioned all of it, but if I could try to sum it up, it's that you have to think about your day to day, as you mentioned, of what kind of life do you actually want to live? And then how much money does that take? Is it sustainable? And then get real numbers from people, reach out and find out like, how much can you make from this? Is that even possible? Because there are a lot of people that go down a road pursuing something hard for a few years and then they realize, oh, there's no money at the end of this rainbow here. Like this is not happening. Holly: Yeah. and, [00:46:00] and, thinking about things like health insurance, you know, like, It's stupid to have to think about it, but it, you know, that's like we said being sustainable, but yeah, I, I think if we're talking about success at this point I think I am at a place where I'd say I define success as if I like my day to day, Stephen: and there's nothing wrong with defining success is simply doing the thing once and calling it quits. You know, like I want to do a tour. I did a tour tour. Wasn't sustainable. We lost money, but it was great. And I loved every minute of it and I did it. or I want to, I want to self record my record or I want to set up a studio and do these things. I love all of that and people should be doing all of that. problem is when people start. Like turning that into something like where they put their expectations at a place where it's like, but that's not sustainable. And then they regret what happened. Whereas I feel like if we could have more of the conversation up front. Then at the end of it, there'd be fewer regrets. I think maybe that's my hope for the episode is [00:47:00] simply to encourage you to think ahead, to plan, to have conversations, to ask questions. and that way, when you set out to do something, it's, it's, it's. Out of the right motivations for one, but also you can look at the results through a clear lens. I think a lot of people look at some of the results with disappointment and they shouldn't be. They just shouldn't be. But it's simply because they didn't know that in fact, like, well, what you accomplished was actually really, really good. Better than average. Holly: yeah. Expectations and all that stuff. It's like, because in the end we all kind of just want to be happy, right? I just want to take the power away from money beingbehind closed doors only like screw that. Let's recap a little bit of this and try to give some advice and pointers for the healthiest way to approach these things. Now obviously Holly and I aren't pretending like we have this all figured out. We both struggle in our own endeavors. Stephen: I still struggle to call myself an engineer sometimes.It's everything is, you know, is very personal. [00:48:00] So if some of this advice works for you, great. If it doesn't ignore it, keep doing your thing. You know, some people listening might be considerably more successful than both of us combined. Some people might hope to get into our position at some point. There's going to be a wide range, but I think some of this could just help you sort it through, especially if you're at the beginning of this journey or if you're just at a crossroads where you're not sure what. What's next? So I think the first thing on identity is the main takeaway is that it's okay to claim it. Be bold and to just get started. It's okay. If you look back and go, I'm better now. Like, I don't like what I did back then. I'm so much better now. That's the sign of growth. That's okay. We all have projects probably from the past that we go, rather didn't hear that. You know, that's a part of it. don't don't let that stop you claim what you want to be and go for it and get started. Measure yourself only on your past self, not on other people or [00:49:00] what Holly: Mm hmm. Stephen: to be. Along with that goes setting tangible goals, setting things that you can actually accomplish. What is the next step? It's good to be bold and ambitious and set stuff way down the line and like. what's the dream outcome here? But if you only do that and you don't set the smaller steps that it takes to get there, it'll be very, very difficult. And in that setting of a smaller steps, you need to define what you think success is for yourself. What is the next success? If your only measure of success is I'm going to be as big as Taylor Swift or whatever, then you're just going to be unhappy. set some real tangible things on the way to that bigger goal that you can celebrate because if you don't have anything before playing Red Rocks, you know, or whatever your goal might be, it's a tough road. That's tough. have that and make success be something that is tangible, achievable along the way. And then once you get there, set success a little higher. Yeah. And keep moving that goal post. [00:50:00] When it comes to money, my advice is to make sure that you are stable in that department. If you're more of the risk taker, by all means go for it. but Holly: Good to know the risk you're Stephen: It's good to know, and don't be afraid to set up a lunch or coffee or something with somebody that's in the position you want to be and try to, get information about that business. Not everybody's going to be open to sharing exact Holly: But I think people will be surprised how people are to about what they're Stephen: Yeah. you know, there's certain questions you can use besides how much money do you make? Yeah. You know? How long did it take you to get to this position? You know, just thinking about that, there can be things like, how do you advise setting this up? You know, how long does it take for this to be sustainable? There's other things like that. They can at least give you a glimpse into how to go about a, a business aspect of it, you know, because by asking some of those questions, you might immediately get an [00:51:00] answer of like, it's not, you know, And then that'll give you a clue of, okay, then I need to recalibrate what my goals are going to be. Holly: Yep. And don't get caught in the sunk cost fallacy too. I feel like sometimes people go so far down one road, they feel like they have to keep going down it. But if you need to pivot, go right ahead. Stephen: I have seen, noticed, and maybe you have too, I've noticed a trend of some like Influencers in the music industry talking a little bit more about money, which I've been encouraged to see. now a lot of them share how much they make cause they're making a lot. So it's easier to share. but I think that's a start. It'll at least allows you to know like, Oh, well, there's a lot of value in social media. Holly: What is, yeah. And it's funny too, cause it's not like I, I'm hoping that. Like artists are talking about money you know, promotion or marketing or whatever. I don't love like, Artists having to pivot in a way where they turn into Instagram influencers who are selling a course on how to [00:52:00] make a living in music or engineers. I feel like there's some engineers who make more money people how to become engineers. Stephen: say that pretty much everyone can make more money doing that You know, like, or dislike, you've got some of the biggest engineers in the world doing courses now it's simply Holly: Yeah. No, I know. Yeah. And so I guess I just wanted to make clear, like, I'm not encouraging artists to turn their career into, not art. I feel like some of the best conversations about money are in person. Between people talking real stuff, you know, I don't want artists to lose the playfulness and the like real gut humanness that their art is by being distracted. I think that goes back to the conversation of what do you want your day to be like, because for some artists, let's say the conversation is, all right, well, I'm, I'm in a solo project and I need [00:53:00] more money. I just, I can't afford to make music as much as I want to. I would say that's how most feel. The vast majority of solo projects and bands probably, I don't have enough money. Stephen: I would record a lot more if I had more money to do it with. How do I get more money? Holly: hmm Stephen: Well. There's a couple options. You can go get a 9 to 5. You can use some other skill set completely outside of music. Definitely an easier way to make money. And some artists are going to go, I just would kill me to like, I want to do something in music. And they might say, well, I could make a chorus. I could I could teach guitar. I could do all these things. my point is, is that it depends on you. It depends on for, for that person. They might get really excited about teaching and being able to show somebody how to use logic or how to play the guitar or how to sing better. Yeah. I mean, that's what this podcast is essentially. so if, if that lights you up, that might be something that can then fuel the other part of your career that you're hoping for. If that's [00:54:00] the right balance for you, if that would drain you, if that would distract you as you were alluding to, if that would make you feel like, well, now all I'm doing is making an educational course about how to. Do this and I'm not making my, well, then that's not balanced. So if that can't go hand in hand with the other thing that you wanted, then that's not the way to do it. You might've been better off getting a job that was that you could leave. That was like very Holly: Yeah, and that maybe, maybe was well paying. So you're, you're efficient with your time. I mean, that was, that's 1 thing I've said about doing software engineering is it's a very efficient way to make money. Like you, you don't need much time to make good money. Stephen: So you have to just ask yourself, how do you want to spend that extra time that is for the money side? It might be related to your current goals or it might be completely different. Holly: totally. It's Stephen: Just whatever works for you. Holly: Yeah. And your day to day. Stephen: Yeah. So as you have claimed that identity, set some goals and then you figure out sort of the money [00:55:00] stuff and then pivot, adjust, make, make adjustments as it goes. I think too, the biggest thing with money is to look, I swear if people just look, it'll just come naturally to make good choices. Do you know what I mean? Cause I feel like there's a lot of people who are like, they just don't want to look, they don't want to know how much debt they're in. They don't want to see how little's in Holly: their bank account. They don't want to think about, you know, like they don't want to look at their, if they like made any money on that last record. It's like. Just look. You can't make any good choices about it if you're not looking. So I feel like that's like a, that's literally the first step, and I think it's half of the work, is literally looking. The episode last week was with It was with Kevin bow and the episode is on myths and misunderstandings. Stephen: And so onewas like, well, you can't make any money in the music business, you know, and like the people that complain about that. there's a lot of people that aren't making any money in the music business, but there are plenty that are. And, I think that some of it can come off harsh I think a lot of the conversation I would like to [00:56:00] focus a little bit more is not because I want you to find a way to make a living at it. I want you to find a way to make it a part of your living and be happy about it. Not because I think, Oh, you're going to become rich at this. It's like, no, I think if you have these conversations, you're going to become happier. And you're going to find a way to fit it into your life in a healthy way where you're getting exactly what you want out of it and you're not going into debt or the, or what you are putting into it is, is what you've allocated for it and you're perfectly fine with it because it brings you tons of joy and happiness. I've got a handful of clients that are. serious musicians, they don't make their living from it, but they take it very seriously and they have found a way to pursue it over and over and over again. They've put out tons of records. They've got merchandise. than a lot of people who are making a living They're fantastic. And they found ways to just make it sustainable in their life. Does it make them money? No. I mean, I think most of them just make sure it covers costs and they're happy. They don't lose money. And, I think there's some people that are [00:57:00] going to hear that and be like, that's ridiculous. I can't believe that. I'm like, but I think that that's, that's where it's at for a lot of people. And there's nothing wrong with that. We spend our money on all kinds of things. Holly: Yeah, I love the way you said make it part of their living like Literally, it's part of your living the way you live. It's not that you're making a living from it like I think that's a really good way to put it as like that's what we're talking about is how to integrate it, It's hard to integrate it in. Yeah. Stephen: not everyone is going to do it full time. I think a lot of people have that objective and have that as the dream. And that's perfectly fine. But I think in the meantime, integrate it in a healthier way. Is there anything else that you feel like we left off? Any last points you want to bring up before we wrap Holly: Well, what my mom always said, which is the main thing is to have fun. I used to not believe her because I was a very serious teenager. But the truth is, I do think that's still true. With all this talk about money, and making a living, and art, and seriousness, [00:58:00] it's like, I still do think the main thing is to have fun. Stephen: I agree. Holly: one thing we didn't get at actually that we should just plug in here at the very end quick is that you also do these workshops for people. Stephen: Can you tell people a little bit about that? Cause I know you have one coming up in September. Holly: Yeah, I'm trying to get one book because I think, I think the world of audio is very information gatekeepers sometimes. And I think even just the amount of vocabulary you have to learn like that. This is an XLR cable, not a mic cable, blah, blah, blah. I just want people to walk into a studio and not feel intimidated and also, I think, encourage a culture of it's okay to ask questions. It's okay if you feel like maybe you'll look stupid. There's things I don't know that I should know big deal. So I just want to get people in a room I also think the touching equipment is like a big cliff for people I think like they'll watch a video they'll understand the concepts, but like actually like setting the [00:59:00] gain on a microphone level I'm like, let's just get in there get over that part Let's just like literally start touching gear so that doesn't feel like a big hurdle and you might accidentally Have feedback sometimes. No big deal. As long as you don't ruin your hearing, it's no big deal. So yeah, it's usually my goal for most, mostly I've done it where it's like, I want to, my mom to be able to walk in. I'm, that's my reference just because I know she doesn't know much about sound and be able to leave. And go up to like a practice space and be able to set up a PA. So like you don't need to know anything about audio and come in for a few hours and we'll just try to get it where at least if you walk in a room where there's a microphone, a mixer and a speaker. You can get it running. Stephen: How would somebody get in touch with you if they're interested in this kind of workshop? Holly: SalonSonics. com pretty much has everything you need to get a hold of me. Um, if you are in Minneapolis, I just encourage you if you like to engineering, just start reaching [01:00:00] out to engineers because my experience is that we have a very. Collaborative, supportive community of engineers. and if you want reach out to me, I love when people want to engineer. Stephen: we'll put your website, your Instagram, all that kind of stuff. People can track you down and find an email. So, Holly: Great. Stephen: thank you so much for doing this. Holly: Thanks for having me. Stephen: conversation. So Holly: I'm, I'm already going, what did I say that I'm going to regret? What did I say that I'm going to regret? But I'm just letting it go. Stephen: I have that feeling most weeks, so, yeah, but I think that's why this stays kind of a problem is that it's hard conversation to have. Holly: to fumble over our words because it's new ground. Stephen: Yeah, and it's not, there's not a, there's not a universal truth to this for people. People are going to disagree at times and that's okay. So it's meant, it's meant to help take it or leave it. Yeah. Holly: Yeah. Stephen: All right. Well, thank you everyone who has listened to the episode. If you like it, please, please, [01:01:00] please tell somebody else about it. follow YouTube, all that good stuff. And I'll see you next week. Thanks.