Ep. 40: Syncing Music with Business: Insights from Brian Reidinger of In The Groove

[00:00:00] Stephen: Welcome to Secrets From The Scene. My name is Stephen Helvig and I am your host. We are on episode 40 this week, which feels pretty cool to get this far in. And I just wanted to take a second before this episode to say thank you to everyone that's listened or watched on YouTube, people that have subscribed, followed us online. Really meaningful. Thank you so much. I hope all of this has been helpful for you. This podcast is all about sharing stories and connections and [00:01:00] advice, insights amongst ourselves here in the local Minnesota music scene. I've been interviewing artists, engineers, producers, and a variety of different local businesses like today's episode, which I'm really excited to share with you. But before we do all of that, I just wanted to encourage anybody who has been listening to Please get in touch if you have ideas for how to make this podcast better, you know, 40 episodes in starting to hit our stride, but also looking ahead, I have a huge list of potential guests and subjects and things like that. And I would love to know what you guys all think about, how things have been going so far, what you want to hear more of, particularly what kind of topics you want to be learning, who you want to be hearing from. if there's stuff that you feel like. is very skippable. You know, we should do less of that or things that you want us to dive deeper into. I'd love to know, we have contact information and all of the show notes on every podcast platform, but you can also find us online. We have, [00:02:00] Instagram, all that stuff. So send us a DM, but your feedback's really, really helpful, especially as I look ahead at the next 40 episodes and, start reaching out to more guests. it'd be really helpful to know, what's connecting and resonating with you. With you all listeners, but if this is your first time listening, thank you so much for checking this out. Please help continuing spread the word, leave a review on Spotify or Apple podcasts. all that stuff really helps keep the momentum of this thing going because it does take a lot of work. And I, Also need to take a second to say thank you to my two teammates, Max Green and Joey Bean for enabling all of this to happen. Because if it was just me, we definitely wouldn't be putting out an episode every week and it's very possible we just wouldn't be doing this at all. So, Very appreciative to everybody. That's a part of this making it happen, but especially the listeners. Let's get into this week's episode, which is a really good one. I am going to be doing kind of a [00:03:00] local business highlight. That's how I would frame this episode. And it's with Brian Reidinger from In The Groove. In The Groove is a local sync company and they've been in business for 30 years now. Really, really impressed with them. They do extremely high end work. And they do stuff for TV. They do stuff for brands. I'm sure there's plenty of other miscellaneous work. But, they work with people all over the world, but there are a lot of local artists that Have work with in the groove and have had placements within the groove. So this week's episode, you're going to get to hear from Brian, one of the co founders about the company, their ethos, how it got started, who they serve, how to submit music to them and more. I've got a little short bio of In the Groove I'm going to read quick, and then we're going to dive into the episode. In the Groove music was born of a simple idea. Create inventive, original music for advertising. Founded by partners Darren Drew and Brian Reidinger in 1995, In the Groove has grown to embrace publishing, licensing, music supervision, and exemplary [00:04:00] client service. Yet at the core, the simple motivating engine remains. Craft, compelling sounds that tell a story, convey an idea or create an emotional response. Please welcome this week's guest, Brian Reidinger. Thank you, Steve. Is it Steve or Steven? You know, I've done both quite a bit over the years. I think when I started being more, uh,public facing as a, as a producer and, you know, deciding, like, how am I going to write my names on stuff? That's when I really switched over to Stephen. Brian: I'll try to remember that. as of this coming March 6th, it will be 30 years, Stephen: congratulations. That's a, that's an impressive stretch. Brian: think longer than Darren and I ever thought. And we started, literally I was living in Milwaukee trying to make a career as a rock drummer. I'd gone down and joined a band. There was a band out of Milwaukee called Realm and they were on Roadrunner Records. And I was playing drums for a popular cover band in town here called Gemini.[00:05:00] And Gemini would get some road work and we went down to Milwaukee on one of our sojourns. And wound up playing a place called T. A. Vernes, which it took me forever to figure out taverns. I had played there for years in several different bands and I never, taverns. Oh, duh. Well, in any event, uh, the guys from Realm were there. They approached me. They invited me to join their band. They gave me cassettes. This was in the era of cassettes. I went out to my truck after our show and I put the cassette in and I was panic stricken because it was thrash metal. It's all that oompa, oompa, oompa, oompa, really fast. It's like polka on steroids. I thought, I can't play this. but I thought, it's an opportunity because they have a record deal. I had thought, I'm in Milwaukee. This is really going to be my last push. And so I went to the audition. I fumbled through a few of their songs and then they [00:06:00] said, Hey, do you write? And I had always written music I, you know, written riffs and this and that. And yeah, I've got this and I've got that. And they were really, you know, to entertaining what I brought. And so we started playing some of those I left and thought, well, I'm not getting that gig. Well, I got a call a couple of days later and they asked me to join. So I closed up shop and the twin cities, you terminated my rent, packed up my drums and whatever clothes I own moved to Milwaukee and Somewhere in that timeline, I had met my business partner, Darren Drew. I had been hired as a studio drummer. I was getting projects through Brian Bart, who's not far from Stephen: Yeah, I know Brian. Brian: I met him many years ago and he and I hit it off on a personal level and. He had enough faith in my drumming to hire me for projects. Maybe I was cost effective. I kind of didn't [00:07:00] know what to charge, but in any event, so, Bart hired me for a project, Darren was keyboard player on that project. We showed up to rehearse before we went into the studio and Darren and I were the only two guys on time. And Darren told me, he said, I made note of that. You were one of the only musicians I ever met who was on time, which is kind of funny because occasionally I'm late for things, but. so Darren and I kept in touch when I went down to Milwaukee to join the guys from Realm. And that band ultimately became a band called White Fear Chain. We did one CD, we had some interest from different record labels, but as with most bands, personality differences, different obligations and desires, pulling at everybody, and after a year we went our separate ways. Stephen: Okay. Brian: might be able to make music, writing music for television commercials. so, On my free [00:08:00] time, I'd either spend weekends going to Faribault, Minnesota to record bands in the Gemini studio, the guitar player from Gemini and the sound guy or one of the techs had built a studio in the basement of an old office building in downtown Faribault. And they'd let me use it for some Aggressively low rate, maybe five bucks an hour or something. And it was 24 track tape. It was one inch tape, which is that is an odd duck, but it was enough to work, to work on my chops, to figure out what works and what doesn't. I brought the white fear chain realm guys up there. We recorded our one album there. I'd find other bands from the cities and bring them down and record them. And then I'd go up and see Darren before I'd head back to Milwaukee. We just hang out and. Talk about, well, what would we do? How would we do this? And so when the band in Milwaukee blew up, I had a few personal issues I was dealing with and I got through [00:09:00] those and I moved back in March, late February of 95. And by starting, I literally got in my car that morning and drove out to his house. He and his wife lived in Savage at that time. And he had a couple pieces of gear. I think his parents had gotten him a, quarter inch time code tape machine. And then he had one or two keyboards. I forget if there was anything else, but we basically talked about, well, what are we going to do? How are we going to do it? We didn't know a thing so we made some coffee and. We tried to figure out who was in the business, and we made a couple of calls. I think one of the early calls we made was to a woman named Camille Benoit, or Benoit, or however she says her surname. And she was the sales rep at Ash Spencer, who were a big player locally. Stephen: Sure. Brian: And we were out on the, uh, little deck outside of his [00:10:00] kitchen at that house. And we were talking to her on the phone, and she was nice. I think she realized we were a couple of rubes who had no idea about anything. But we were not dissuaded by that. We just thought, you know, I think we can do this. And so, Darren knew a couple people from his work as a grip gaffer. In the film business, there was a more evolved film business in the local community. Back then, more commercials were shot locally. There were production Stephen: Okay. Brian: he got some gig to write a piece of music for an industrial film. Stephen: Okay. Brian: it paid 400. And so we did it. And we realized it worked. we got along. We kind of saw the world in similar hues at that point. And we made as much then doing this piece of music as we would have made playing in a band. But, Playing in the band, you'd have to drive to the [00:11:00] bar in Owatonna, set up all your gear, play for three hours, tear down, drive home, get home at two in the morning. This was, we spent a couple hours putting this piece of music together, sent it over, they said change this, change that, we did that, we sent it back, it was done, they paid us. And so we could see. This might be the better way to go with a music career. Stephen: Sure. Brian: And coming back from Milwaukee and that failed band, I had sort of decided I've done bands for years. I'd been doing bands for 15 or 20 years. I liked it I mean, when I look back on it now, I realized emotionally, I wasn't in a place where I was going to commit myself to my career in a way that would have produced greater results. I was. Basically immature and insecure and unsure Darren's and my partnership sort of circumvented that for each of us and it [00:12:00] also provided a way to do music where you didn't have to move to LA or New York and get yourself in the scene and do a whole bunch of networking and take gigs and get out on the road and all that We started to make a little bit of money. so we got that job and we thought, Hey, we could do this. And we went for a couple of months and didn't do a thing. Couldn't get anybody to take calls. If they did, Hey, I'll take a meeting. They'd cancel the meeting. we had one guy from Campbell Muthun advertising at that time actually came to the house and he saw it. I don't think he ever talked to us again. I think he just realized I've been duped. It was like George Costanza's mother. You're not musicians. You're just a couple of rubes out in Savage. Anyway, with a microphone and a tape machine. So, uh, I went off and did a week with a band because I was out of money. I had no money in my bank account. I think I was down to a hundred dollars. I couldn't pay my rent. [00:13:00] I had a car. I really couldn't put gas in. I couldn't buy food, trying to figure out what the heck to do. I got a call to do a week at some hotel in Watertown, South Dakota. You get 500 bucks plus your meals, plus a room. I'll take it. And while I was out there, Darren called me and said, I got us an ad job and he'd gotten us a job to do a song for the Minnesota twins and it paid 4, 000. And I almost dropped the phone. Stephen: Wow. Brian: And so I finished the gig. I came back, we put this little piece of music together and it worked and they liked it and they paid us. then we thought there's something here. And so. From that point, it was one piece at a piece of music at a time, one piece of gear at a time. Stephen: Okay, yeah. Brian: And, between my upbringing, which was, uh, probably more socially progressive, fiscally conservative,the fiscal side [00:14:00] for me was key because Darren and I talked about early on about, we don't want to take out big loans and buy stuff. You know, one piece of gear at a time, one thing at a time. I also discovered, slowly over time, I had sort of an affinity, some might call it an addiction, to recording gear. So, when we were still at his house, we were there for two years until they, until the day they gave birth to their first child. And his wife had told us, You have to get out, we're having a baby. You can't be here. Stephen: Fair. Brian: thing was, she had told us that and we had gone down to Campbell Mathune, still trying to get blood from that turnip. We had a meeting with a different producer there and we were up on whatever floor they were on and I was looking out over downtown because they were in the Piper Jaffray Tower at that time, 9th and 3rd, and there's this little tiny building that is surrounded by a bigger building that is surrounded by the really big [00:15:00] building that is the Capella Tower now. And I think back then that was the first bank tower when they first built it, the really big one. Then it's surrounded by the grand hotel. And then the little building in the corner was the WCCO radio building. I didn't know that Darren and I are looking out the window and I just pointed at that building and I said, we should be like in a building like that, right in the heart of everything. Wonder of wonders. They had space for rent. They give us 600 square feet up on the 5th floor. You have to go through all of this dead, unrented space. And there's this room, like way in the back. No one could ever find it, ever. It would have been a great place to hang out if you were a serial murderer. Because no one would have ever found you. we hired a contractor to come in and build a wall. And put a window in it, And so now we have a studio. We have the edit suite and we have the recording room. so we started there, the actual company [00:16:00] was founded August 26th, 1997. I think we moved in October 1st, 1997 and the company, the actual company was founded, I got a gig playing hand drums for, uh, a singer in town, Marilyn Freeman, So she and I and this keyboard player and we're in the back room playing and people are dancing and whatnot And there's this one gal just sitting there kind of watching us and she would clap and at the end of it I went over and talked to her. She asked, you know, what do you do and so I told her and somehow the conversation came around to Well, are you guys set up as a company? No, what's that? So I went out to lunch with her and I got a business education and about a 90 minute lunch that has lasted the rest of my life. So with that, she helped me set up the company. The whole corporate structure and how it's fairly complicated, how it's set up. she walked me through that. She did all the [00:17:00] paperwork. She had a bunch of questions. So we got the company set up and then we moved downtown. Now we're an actual company. We're a limited liability company. And Stephen: So that's two years in that's two years in from Hey, we, we could make money writing music for, uh, okay. So I have a couple of questions and kind of want to recap this a little bit. You're both playing in bands that, you know, at the start he, or he was at least doing session gigs. Brian: he was, but he was less committed to music as his voice. I mean, he loves music and it's, it's an important part of his life, but I was committed to the craft of drumming and music creation. And I think that's what he saw in me. could tell you himself. But at least when he and I have had conversations with third parties, that is, that is what he'll say. He'll say, Brian was more of the musician than I was. but he played [00:18:00] keyboards in bands. He played in a lot of bands growing up. I think in some ways for him, it was a way out. He Stephen: So you two are, are saying, Hey, let's, let's go for this. Let's try. Let's see if we can make some money doing music for, for TV or for ads. You have two years, you get a couple gigs, you know, first for this industrial film or whatever the first one was. And then there's a few industrials in okay. And then you get the big twins thing and that's huge. two years later, you're starting to rent space. So over those first two years, was it. I mean, how many projects were you doing? Were you, was that your full time work? Were you guys supplementing with other jobs? Were you just still gigging? Brian: we saw early on that we could make a living out of this. when I got back from that gig in South Dakota and we did the twins thing, we had to figure out how we're going to split the money. And we talked about it, we recognized, okay, you have to do this in particular ways, and so we went through that. [00:19:00] And we both walked out of that with one of the bigger paychecks we had probably made up to that point, certainly for me. And so I just decided I'm really not going to take any gigs that impede what we're trying to do here. I might play a show on a weekend always during the week. I'd get up Monday morning and drive out to his house and we would try to figure Who do we call? What do we do? How do we do this? So in the early days, the focus was on, you know, We can make a living out of this. I don't think we ever thought we're going to build a business and it's going to become a substantive business. early on, it was job to job and Hey, we had success. Let's see what else is out there. What can we do next? And this was still in the creative realm. We were writing every project you would write for. Licensing wasn't [00:20:00] part of it. there. However, Michelle, the attorney who helped me set up the corporate structures at the end of all of that, she told me, you know, you guys should start a publishing company you know, of course, like everybody, I'm thinking print. Why would we know? And she's like, you know, you look at a record published by All of that music is published. And she said, someday you guys will have enough music. You'll get into that. So Darren and I were sitting up in our little studio, tucked away on the fifth floor of the building we were in. And we were just talking and one of us said, you know, one of these days we're going to need a giant client. And we both laughed. And so I called Michelle up and I said, we're going to call the publishing company, Giant Client Publishing. I said, see if that's available. And of course she said, well, that's a weird name. And she checked and it was available. And, don't know if she got us a tax ID at that time or what, but the company was never [00:21:00] set up. We just had the basics. So in 2000, Darren had, made contact with MTV. And they had asked about, well, what music have you got cause they wanted music to license for a show or something, by then I had learned enough about the law to be dangerous and. Instead of spending the money on an attorney, I went out and got the documents and set up the publishing company myself. Because it seemed, it was fairly straightforward. At least to me it was. And so then as of July of 2000, the publishing company was a formal company and Darren and I were talking about it and he said, what do we need that for? And we just talked about it. And at one point we talked about, you know, in the long run, that's where your value is. And we talked about the idea of writing music for an ad is a bit like a fighter jet. It performs brilliantly if you have the fuel you know, as long as you're getting your [00:22:00] next job, that's your fuel right at 32nd piece of music, get 30, for it where a publishing company is more like a glider. You have to have something to tow it up. But once it's up in the air, cut the tether, it's going to float around there on the trade winds. I mean, stay, you know, stay in my metaphor for years, if you want Stephen: let's break that down a little bit for people that don't necessarily understand the difference between all of that. So to tie back to, to you and, and Darren getting this started, your, your mindset was mostly we're musicians. We're composers. We're just trying to write a piece of music and get paid for that music. In those early days, were you guys ever thinking about back end royalties at that point, or was it always just, this is the pay for the job, the end? Brian: To answer your question, no, we weren't, we were aware of them in the abstract. It was, there was never the idea that we got to develop royalty [00:23:00] streams, but I always had in the back of my mind, the attorney, Michelle telling me you need to start a publishing company. Stephen: Right. Brian: And so, I mean, the, the long and short of it, uh, of it is if you're doing music for an ad or anything where you're creating, generally, it's going to be a work for hire situation. Some didn't have publishing companies. And over the, over the years we figured out, well, if they don't. Publish it. We should ask if we could publish it. Now, if it's a commercial that runs 13 weeks, well, it's not going to generate a lot. It'll generate a little. but if it's an ad that runs longer, maybe anyway, it's a work for hire thing. And at that point they own it. They own the composition. They own the master. We figured out. You negotiate and say, we'd like to keep the writer's royalties. And in most cases, ad agencies really weren't even aware of that. Oh, well, you wrote it. Of course they never [00:24:00] thought about that. publishing company. On the other hand, you own it. You own the composition. You own the master. Now you also have to go out. And find the avenues for its usage. Stephen: Which you guys were already doing. Brian: Yes. And it's interesting nowadays, the ad industry has morphed so much. I think it's because there's a younger generation. I mean, I'm 61 people from my generation still think in terms, I still think in terms of Jesus, why don't you guys have. A company like us or one of our contemporaries write you a piece of music because then you own it. It is unique and distinct to your brand what makes a piece of music? A brand. constitutes a sonic brand? a few years back, there was all this, verbiage that people were bandying about the term sonic branding. We do sonic branding. I said, I think I could sum it up this way, and I sang the Menards jingle, [00:25:00] but you don't say, when you shop Menards, Oh my God, Menards. I'm like, they've been using that for 30 plus years. I think at that point, they still use it. And uh,I said, it isn't that it's a great jingle. It's that they stuck with it. And that's what you need. Stephen: There's like a cultural relevance, right? Of just when you tie yourself to a popular song of the day, you are trying to win over young audiences and just get association of being a cool brand. Brian: Generally, if somebody is going to license a very big popular song for a lot of money, it's for a temporary association, just for the cultural relevance that that song or existing brand, essentially Stephen: that band brings to their brand. and what you were getting at earlier is that when a company decides to own that master. They can stick with it for a long time, like Menards, and get that value from it instead, which is just association, just consistency. [00:26:00] You know what that is every time you hear it. And owning something allows you to do that, which is essentially what You started to figure out around 2000 or whatever that, Hey, if we own some of these songs, we can keep using them. And as your analogy with the glider went, we can reuse these over and over again, instead of writing something brand new every single time. Brian: I want to get to. I think why a lot of people are tuning in or want to listen to this episode is to like, Hey, I want to know what does in the groove do exactly and how does it benefit me? who does In The Groove serve today and how are you also then connected into the community of local musicians that are putting their stuff in your library? Wow. That's a, that's a wide ranging question. Stephen, what we do is. We create music, music is a universal language. I'll always tell people, look, I don't speak any Chinese, but I can go over to China, I could set up my drums and I could play a beat and [00:27:00] they would immediately know what it is. I could pull out a guitar and start playing a melody or chord changes. They'll know what it is. Obviously, they don't know what song it is. It connects. it's universal. So, we had a guy working for us years ago, Joey Kantor. Brilliant guy. Brilliant keyboard player. He gave us the branding, slogan, Sound Connected. in the groove music, sound connected. it can be sound connected, one phrase, sound connected, period, or sound, period, connected, period. We got that. None of us really knew what to do with it. we began to think, okay, our job is to connect people through sound, the language of music. That's what we speak. That's what we know. That's what we believe we're experts at. The other thing, and my staff has really enlightened me to this, is to advocate for artists, whether they're a producer like yourself, whether they're a composer in Maryland or Banff, Canada, or rural England. Are you a [00:28:00] composer? Do you craft compelling soundscapes or stories or songs? We'd like to talk to you, you know, the, the terms of our deals may or may not work out, but if they do, we advocate for the artist and I can give you a specific example. I, we were talking about this before we started. We had a client recently. I won't name names on the air. they hired us to do music and they paid us for that. Not a lot. Some we did in house, some, we contracted third party composers and those are all done work for hire things. And we do work for hire. I try to be very upfront with everybody we work with, whatever our contract is. It's a work for hire. We will own the composition. We will own the master. We will own all the copyrights. You will always retain your writer's royalty. So no matter what happens to that piece of music, where it goes, you will always be entitled to those back end royalties. Nobody knows [00:29:00] where it might go. Someday, you know, we've had pieces of music that were dormant. They're like viruses. They're dormant for years. And all of a sudden, boom, they blow up and someone calls up, I got a 7, 000 check this quarter. Well, somebody found a song and they liked it anyway. my point is if you come on board, we will advocate for you. so this client calls us up. They had hired us to do these songs. The in house staff does some. We hire several of our contract composers to do some. Everybody's always allowed to retain their writer's royalties. We submit them. The client pays us. That's the end of it. A couple weeks ago, they send an amendment off to my head of, TV sales. And he forwards it to myself and my admin staff. I think it says something to the effect of in so far as it pertains to digital productions only. And then it goes on to say the writers will surrender their writer's royalties. of the things to [00:30:00] learn, and people should always learn this, you know, it's the music business. The emphasis should be on business. Music is the fun part. I go play shows now because I like it, because it's part of my life. It gives me joy. It's a great experience. But the business is where the money is, and that's why you have to know it. And so, I read this And I think to myself, there are no partitions in the performing rights organizations world, ASCAP, BMI and CSAC domestically, where you can say, yes, I can collect writers royalties for television. Or advertising, but I surrender them for YouTube or Vimeo or TikTok. It doesn't work that way. You're registered as the writer or you're not. And so my instincts were, you can't sign that. And I wrote back and I said, so, and so the woman called [00:31:00] me. And I pointed out there are no partitions in that world. It's registered or it isn't. so she passed it on to her boss who called me it was like being bathed in molasses. It was just this gooey, icky explanation. Well, no, you know, it's only for, no, it doesn't work that way. I ended that conversation saying, look. I need to talk to our company attorney and I'll get back to you. So can we table this? And she said, yeah, you know, we, we're not in a huge rush. So I said it to him with an explanation and he called me and he said, so what's your interpretation? And I told him, and he was kind of laughing and he said, that's exactly right. They're asking you to surrender your writer's royalty. And he said, they're asking the writers or you to surrender the writer's royalties on your writer's behalf. I think it was my admin team who pointed out to me that our contracts, our employment agreements with my, creative staff, along [00:32:00] with the work for hire documents we send out to third party contract composers, all ensure. That they will keep their writer's royalties. So if I sign this as the representative for our company saying we surrender the writer's royalties, I am violating the agreements I have with all of those people. I wrote back to the client and said, we can't sign that period. you know, it's good to have a good attorney that you can fall back on. Cause I never went to law school. I have a modest aptitude towards reading and understanding those things. But. So my point is, that's one of the things we do. We advocate for artists beyond our own pocketbook, beyond our own self interest. I told you earlier, I had read, uh,The Man Who Wrecked Capitalism, the story about Jack Welch, who was the CEO of GE and. You know, a lot of what he's doing is born out of the [00:33:00] Milton Friedman Doctrine of 1970. You should all go and read that. It's an eye opener. And it's not very long. Anyway, profits above everything. And, I know a lot of companies run that way, and I know a lot of, American corporate capitalism is geared that way, but I had a better time, figuring out the core values of our company. Then I did a mission statement, the core values I try to operate on. Darren and I have talked about this a lot over the years, their trust, respect, and support. it's like a three legged table. You have to have all three. Take one away, and that platform that you're working on is at an odd angle, or it tips over. Every day, we have to earn our clients trust. We have to earn our artists trust. We have to earn our employees trust. They have to earn ours every day, too. It's not a one way street. We have to earn their respect, all of the above. They have to earn [00:34:00] ours. Once you've done these things, Then you're able to give support when someone asks. I had an employee who was having her first child and she said, I'd like to take some extra time off. You've got it. She'd earned our trust, respect, and support. We gave her the support she needed. We just said to her, you tell us when you're ready to come back and it will be here for you. Now, some of that lesson was born out of, we have a really good distributor in Denmark, Upright Music. And, uh, the owner is a guy named Jeppe Kaltoff. And Darren and I have admired him. We both like him personally, but we admire the company he runs and how he runs it. in Denmark, they have to give, a year off for women for, childcare. What do you call that? Um, Maternity leave. men get six months, women get a year. And in fact, one of the people who works for him, Diana, when she had her last child, she said, I really don't want to take a year off, but that's what I have to do. [00:35:00] And so she was going to work from home. and what Yepa told Darren and I was, okay, so she's gone for a year. What do you do? Well, I have to hire somebody to take her place. And then what do you do when the year's up? Well, he said, what is, what has happened for me and what I figured out is because we do that, we build a slightly different corporate culture. And so when the year is up, We've wound up keeping the person we hired and bringing Diana back. And he said, that's how we've grown or whoever the woman happened to be, it was having the baby. we did a version of the same thing. when our employee had her first child, We brought an intern in and we just kept her. And now Courtney has been a huge asset to us. Bright, even keeled, well educated, easy to work with, curious, organized. she, in a lot of ways, personifies what we aspire to be as a company. And Becky, who's worked for me for a lot of years, brought Courtney to the table. [00:36:00] So we support our staff, our staff supports, they look for people who are interested and have an aptitude. All of those people are also connected with the local community. And so they are in touch with artists. You know, they're out playing shows. They're out doing songwriting, going to shows. They travel for work. They meet people in LA, New York, Nashville, Austin, Texas, Chicago, wherever it happens to be. some of the sales staff will go out and speak at different events and whatnot. But all of that is to find new artists and to build a culture that supports that. You do want to make a profit at the end of the day, but Darren and I have worked meticulously to build a company and a corporate culture that. Is not dependent on bank loans or venture capital or anything else. It's been self funded from day one. So it puts us in a position [00:37:00] that we can, we can conduct ourselves as an organization that way to advocate for. Now, look, there've been people who've come on who we've signed a publishing administration agreements and whatnot, or work for hire agreements who their work didn't generate any royalties. or never licensed. Some people have left. as an example, a publishing administration agreement will have a three year minimum term. But more than once, I've had an artist come and say, I have this opportunity, or I'm really not happy, or whatever happened. I've told the staff, when that comes to light, We don't blanket say, no, your contract says we want to have a conversation with that person because there might be extenuating circumstances or they might just be unhappy my staff might not like their music as much as they thought they did, or they might not like them, sorry, as a person, as much as they thought they did. You know, at the end of the day, [00:38:00] it really is about people. Anywhere you go, in an ad agency, Netflix, or a production house, or an artist playing a show, or your staff in the office, you have to connect with people. And if you can connect with people, you know, this is one thing Darren's been very good at throughout his career. And I think, Starting this company and moving it forward, I think he found his footing there. He loved music. I think it's one of his great passions, but I think the thing he really liked and found an aptitude for was connecting with people out in the world. you do that and then you bring that into a system. And so what I recognized is he's good on that front end. We have to build a culture behind that, that supports that. So when he makes that connection and he passes it off or any of the other sales people do, there's a support network that supports the ideology of connectivity and [00:39:00] support you know, running a values based company upon that. So he doesn't make a sales pitch and connection and says, here, let me put you in touch with so and so and they're now into our system and they're going. This is nothing like what I thought, We try to uphold all of that. So it's, so there's some continuity from it. And by the time you get to talking to Becky and Courtney and Gavin and Jack and Michaela, who are mostly behind the scenes and Drew Lerdahl, who's our creative director, you're talking to some well educated, knowledgeable people who like what they do and like where they're at. I hope most of the time, anyway, Darren and I trust our livelihoods and what we've built with them. And that's what we try to impart to anybody we're working with. That was the other thing I recognized. . you being a musician and you owning a business are two different things. [00:40:00] And you have to be able to see it that way. And you have to be able to keep them separate. was a great lesson because it's, it's freed me up to think about the business in an entirely different way. It isn't feeding me to be a musician. It's about building an organization that. Hopefully we'll live beyond me, it has to be scalable. It has to live without Darren and I, it has to be able to run without us there. It's difficult to build that anyway. And it's also difficult to build that when you started it. And, you know, a lot of times when he and I talk, we've really had a, an unbelievably fortunate run with this thing. I don't think either. Stephen: And I thought we'd get to 30 years, much less 20 years. [00:41:00] [00:42:00] So if somebody's, been listening up to this point and they're like, I like the ethos of in the groove, [00:43:00] I understand that they are connecting, music with, brands, with networks, with production houses. I want my music connected with these people. Can I work within the groove? What are you looking for when it comes to, you know, outside people, not on staff that want to submit their music to you? Brian: well, obviously talent. And then in terms of trends that I leave to the staff, because there are some really talented people out there, but their music might just not be relevant to the media climate right now. Beyond that, people who are serious about what they do. they have a craft and they've worked on their craft within a creative industry. They understand that it's a business. Some of the simple mechanics are, are you self sufficient? Can you record and produce music on your own? Can you deliver a fully finished and produced product? At that point, Do you know what splits are? Can you provide splits? Can you do submixes? Are you familiar with contracts? Do you have legal [00:44:00] representation or somebody who represents you that can walk you through a contract that if we like you, we will put in front of you? You know, have you done that before? All of these basic things so that we don't have to do the homework for you. I guess that's part of it. Stephen: are most of the outside kind of submissions is that mostly always onboarded like as an exclusive deal at that point? Or are you working with artists that have music out and you would just help them with sync? Brian: there are, different methodologies or modalities or different avenues in, however you want to say it. A simple one is a work for hire agreement. We hire you to craft a piece of music on our behalf. We will pay you for that. We will own it lock, stock, and barrel. You will collect the writer's royalties at that point, have a nice day. And if you did a good job, we'll probably hire you again.and if the music's really good and it gets licensed. You've gotten paid to create and now you're making some backend royalties.[00:45:00] if you're an artist and you have a release band, solo artist, whatnot, and it's fully produced and you want us to represent it, our preferred way as a publishing administration agree whereby you own it. You control it, but this agreement, you assign the right to represent it and to act as your de facto publisher for the term of the agreement only, as publishing administration. And in that scenario, you will collect the writers. We will collect the publishing. So in that way, we're hand in hand in terms of back end royalties. That's for the term. We split the net proceeds for any sync monies, upfront monies that are paid. And I'll clarify net as best I can. We have an agent in New York as one example, she takes 10%. So on a 10, 000 job, she'll take a thousand dollars. There's 9, 000 that comes to us. We split Stephen: Sure. What about streaming royalties then? Brian: I think it's provision 1. 2 [00:46:00] in the publishing administration agreement. We, as a mechanical license, we grant back to you that allows you to engage with the streaming platforms of your own volition or, do CDs if anybody does them or do vinyl to sell them, to perform them live at shows, all of that stuff. You do them on streaming, you'll collect the proceeds, period. We have nothing to do with that. And that's addressed in that agreement. Now, that being said, I think if publishing royalties are collected for those streams, that would follow the architecture of the publishing administration agreement, where we would be paid As the publisher of record, and that is so because that administration agreement assigns us that right during the term of that agreement. Now, when that agreement is done, you decide it's done or we decide it's done. Then all of that ends and all of those [00:47:00] rights revert back to you. I think there are some trailing rights that last for a defined period of time, which basically boils down to, we had it from here. We pitched here. that was pitched for some job here. You terminated here, out here, that job now has licensed that, because it was done during the term of the agreement, how it's set up in there will follow out here, however, out here, if there are publishing royalties and the PRO system, has made the change, those royalties will flow to you all of those changes in the PROs take a little bit of time. people have called and terminated, not a lot, but when people terminate, we sent out notifications to all of our distributors overseas immediately, all of our domestic users, we no longer represent this. Six months later, someone might call and say, Hey, we did that and I haven't seen any money yet. All I can tell you is it takes time. That's between you and SESAC or whatever Irv Azoff's [00:48:00] place is now. GRM global or GMR global music rights. so anyway, that's the publishing administration model. That's the best one for us and probably for an artist. if you want us to represent your music and the staff likes it and are interested. More recently, we've set up a sync only model that is, you own it, you control it, you will collect all of the writer's royalties, you will collect all of the publishing royalties, we will collect the sync royalties and split that with you. it's good for you. It works for us in terms of perhaps having our hands on a broader range of music from maybe more high profile artists. We have a couple local record producers of note who've had some hits and whatnot. Whose, catalogs are some of their catalogs we have within our system under a sync only agreement. friend of mine is the musical director for Ricky Medlock from Leonard Skinner and [00:49:00] Blackfoot. And we have an agreement with those guys in place that is sync only. the downside for us is Sync is harder to come by, and for us, really, truth be told, bread and butter for us, where we make the majority of our revenue, is from back end royalties on TV placements. And so, in a sync only agreement, since we don't control it, that music is not allowed to play. most often by our clients to be put into those scenarios. Like we have a blanket agreement with, ABC Disney. We have a blanket agreement with, CBS Viacom. We have a blanket degree, agreement with Discovery. There are probably a few others out there, AMC and some others. I couldn't put any sync only music in any of their hands because the rights ownership and control is different. people coming into this business, one thing they're going to hear a lot of times, one phrase they will hear most often is one stop. I [00:50:00] want to go to one place, someone I trust, someone I respect, someone who supports me back to my original value proposition and get a piece of music, whether I want to have them create it or I want to license it from them. I want to deal with them. I want it to be done. And that's that if there are any problems, I want to call them. I don't want to deal with them and hadn't have to deal with the guy who owns 30 percent of the publishing and the other company that owns the other 70%. And then there are three different composers Stephen: Sure. So your sync only deals, not necessarily pre cleared to be one stop. Yeah. Brian: It's pretty clear to a point. Um, Stephen: the final say, Brian: I think in the case of the Sync Only, Yes, we do. And that is because, through the help of one of the people who actually signed, uh, sync Only thing, they brought to the table the power of attorney agreement, which was key. So, That person went to everybody whose music was involved and had them sign power of [00:51:00] attorney agreements, granting him the authority to represent all of their rights. And then he signed to us. So now we have the right to represent all of the rights inherent in any of that music Stephen: but in that scenario, you wouldn't be giving that to your. Your blanket deals. And why is that exactly? Brian: we are the publisher for all of those. in the cases I can think of when they're registered, people doing the cue sheets, they know it's our publishing entity, giant client publishing. You just put that down. That's the end of it. They don't want to deal with a third publisher. They don't want to have any potential loose ends where someone might call them and say, Hey, we own that. Stephen: Cause Brian: did you use that? Stephen: yeah, it's simple then because you're not the publisher on that. You're just a rep for the sync on that. Yeah. Brian: And then we get a finder's fee now that can work, but this is a longer term business lesson. And there are probably people listening to your podcast who know way more than I do, but it's the [00:52:00] idea of return on investment. Sync is great for maybe broadening the scope of the music you represent. Which might help you land a license job. I don't necessarily think it's played out so much for us yet, but we're early in the Stephen: Okay, it makes sense. And for any listeners that are just kind of confused about some of these differences, it's one thing that might help clarify a little bit is that oftentimes these TV placements don't generate a sync fee. They only generate blanket licenses with the publisher and backend and backend royalties, but there won't necessarily be a sync fee. and so. If you're doing a sync only arrangement, then there is no sync fee. right. And that's the other thing for us. There would be no right. Right. You cause you are not publishing it. Yeah. Brian: Thank you for educating me there. I'd actually remember that. And then I forgot and I, you brought it up and that's right. That's the whereas with, with ads and brands doing big commercials, that sort of thing, one [00:53:00] off projects, That's largely about the sync deal or the sync fee, Stephen: there there can be back end royalties, as you said earlier in the episode, if it runs for a really long time, depending on where it runs and, and, and for how long, but that's really not the purpose of that. The purpose is to getting the sync fees where you're going to make most of the money. Yep. Yeah. So then it makes sense in those scenarios. So, okay. There's three sort of three structures. There was the, the work for hire where you do still get to keep your writers. Then there's, the publishing admin deal where you're going to have your music exclusively, in the hands of, in the groove, the publisher to do the admin for you. And then, there'd be a sync only deal, which is kind of new and probably more rare. from a, you know, for any bands out there listening, okay, I, I'm starting to understand sync. I want to try to get some more placements. And they liked the idea of working with a local company that supports their values. And, you know, they liked the ethos of, of in the groove. If they send stuff to you, they're probably [00:54:00] more than likely looking at a publishing admin deal. Yeah. Under that scenario. I'm guessing these work for hires are mostly like custom brief kind of work. Brian: yeah, custom brief or, and sometimes custom briefs are generated internally because we'll be looking at, we provide music, say for general hospital. Stephen: Yeah. Brian: And a few new shows on ABC. And so we just try to keep an eye on what might they be looking for. So a lot of times we'll generate the brief internally. And that'll get distributed to the in house composers. And, my creative director oftentimes will have recommendations on who we should hire third party. then those will go out that way. those would be work for hire scenarios. You get paid, you keep your writers, it'll go into a pipeline that has demonstrated an ability to generate, good revenue over the past eight years, Stephen: Yeah. Okay. So people say they all get that. What should they do and not do when it comes to submitting music to you guys? what they should do is have their [00:55:00] shit together, sorry, my apologies, but, But what does that look like? I mean, you don't have to cover every detail, but what are the big Brian: No, but have a product, understand what you're looking for and what your expectations are. if you initiate contact, we'll help with that. you have a finished product. You don't have to be a band out touring. You know, you could be someone who writes in your basement but you do it regularly. Submit it. And I think I went through some of this earlier. are you self sustained? Because we've had artists call, Hey, we got this record. It's great. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. Can we get splits? What are splits? You need to know what splits are. We need, you know, a stereo mix of the drums. The bass, the guitars, the keyboards, the vocals, because oftentimes editors now want to do their own mixes, want to do their own edits, want to rearrange it in a way that they see fit. Do you have sub mixes? people will call and they'll have something and they won't have done it. and we've gone through this with artists where they've brought us. What [00:56:00] are really good, useful recordings that our clients are looking for, but they did it at a third party studio and you go to that studio to get splits and they ham and haw, we've lost more than a couple of jobs because the studio didn't or wouldn't get a splits and we've paid for it a lot of times and then look We're not opposed to doing that. If we like an artist and we develop a rapport with them and we see, you know, they're a good artist, but they're just on the art side of things. We can help them with the business. So we'll go to the studio. We need this needs to be 24, 48 K waves, whatever it needs to be. Get it to us and bill us. And then we'll just turn around and say that, you know, that comes out of, that'll be recoupable out of sync. We don't ever recoup out of people's royalties because we don't, as a matter of business practice, want to administer your royalties, that's ick. [00:57:00] You're a writer, get it from your PRO. We're the publisher during the term of this agreement. We'll collect it from the PRO. The minute you say we don't want to do that anymore, we will write a letter to the PRO saying we are surrendering our claim, you know, via this contract by virtue of this termination letter. Please consider this our acknowledgement of such, whatever. What else to do? Be patient. Have realistic expectations. you're not going to come in and make a fortune. You may never make much money, that's just the reality of it. It's a numbers game. In the royalty business, unless you write a hit song and then you're probably not going to come to us anyway, because the bigger vultures in the bigger, bigger ponds of the music industry will be swooping in to fill your head with, you know, gold dust, dreams of superstardom and 150 foot yachts, something like that. It doesn't work that way for us. The world we built is a numbers game If you fit and you [00:58:00] do good work, we can offer an avenue where over time you will build up a cachet of music that generates revenue for you. I'll also tell you or will tell you, you know, I think my staff's done a good job of this, if it's not working, we're not gonna bullshit you and say, Oh, it's great. Just hang on. I'd be one of the first ones to say, look, if you're not happy. I would go and I'll give you the names of some other companies who have different contacts in different little substratus of the business who might do better for you. There's nothing wrong from my perspective with saying we can't do everything. Some of our contemporaries are better in areas. We're good in some areas, we're not good in others. it's about advocating for the artist. And sometimes that saying, you know, I think you'd do better over here. when we first started, Darren and I always kind of hunkered down and we'd sort of privately hate on. All the other music companies around town. I'm looking up over [00:59:00] the edge of the little ravine we lived in. And I didn't like those guys. They suck. They're bad. I got a call from a guy once we lost a job I was so incensed that we lost the job. I found his email and I said, Hey, we lost that job to you. I'd like to hear your track. It was almost as a challenge. And the guy reached out, he sent me the MP3 Then he sent me a follow up email. Then he called me and I thought, well, he's the competition, but he's really nice. He was out in Maryland at the time, Maryland or Virginia. I listened to his track and I thought, well, it's no better than ours. It's just different. It was just more of what the client was looking for. you lose a little bit of your ego then because you realize. Darin's very good at recognizing this. It's a subjective business. a guy named Danny Burke, one of the St. Thomas guys who came out, or came and worked for us early on. And he's a brilliant writer and producer. I think he lives in Stillwater now and he works for a Cobalt. Stephen: spoke with Danny a few Brian: Danny, Danny's a lovely human being. But in any event, we were [01:00:00] having a creative meeting when Danny and Casey and drew Lerdal, who's still with us. We're all with us. And Darren and I, and we're in the main studio and the door is closing. We're talking about something. And Danny said, look, what we have to remember is we're creating art. We're not here to create art for art's sake. We're doing it in service of someone else's vision. And I've never forgotten that because he's exactly right. So, what can you do? You can recognize that. Never lose sight of that. we've contacted you because of your creative abilities. Your musical sensibilities. Your willingness to do all that. But you always have to remember, This is in the service of commerce. So you have to leave your emotions aside in terms of ownership or ego or whatever you might tether to it. And I, I've been as guilty as anybody of that over many years, took a lot of years to let that go. that's a [01:01:00] big thing people can do if they're hired. Now, admin deal or something to that effect, doesn't really come into play. But. It's keeping your expectations realistic because someone might say, yeah, that song is close, but it doesn't have enough quoi, or it doesn't have enough heavy guitar in the chorus, or it doesn't have enough synth or, you know, techno what, I mean, it's endless. And you can't take that personally. It's just art for commerce and that's all it will ever be. And so I think a lot of times artists that we like and that my staff tends to look for are artists who are creating music for themselves because it matters to them. I mean, I do that myself. I've released an album a few years ago. I got another one coming out. I produce other records and that's for myself. That's pure expressionism. That's [01:02:00] great. But when you get into the world of licensing and commerce and all that, there's a different ethos at work and you have to temper your attachment to it. Now on a pub admin thing, it's yours and it will always be yours. When it gets into this field, you have to recognize people are going to use it and see it in a different way. I remember there was a female artist years ago, and it's not the only one, but one I'm remembering now, and she was mortified that one of her songs got licensed for some project or something. I had to call her and explain to her, that's the world we live in. that being said, the staff has a pretty good sort of moral compass, if I can be so bold as to say that. we're not licensing to adult films or, you know, some hard right or hard left causes. you try to use common sense, talks to a point, but they can't usurp your values. And if they do, what do you have left to stand on? I think that's been the big [01:03:00] driving force behind building the company. This, it has to be something more than just profit if it's only profit, you'll do whatever you have to do to get that money. And you'll screw whoever you have to screw to get it. And Darren and I don't want to be those people. And we don't want to run our company that way. We've known some contemporaries in this business who are that way. we've marveled at them and recoiled from them because it's, how do they do that? there have to be more humane, more human first ways. To achieve success in your chosen Stephen: Yeah. Agreed. 100 percent agreed. Well, this has already been a great conversation and long and we talked a bunch before this even started. So I, I appreciate your time. I don't want to keep you forever and ever. I think this is probably a good place to wrap up for the most part. You know, the only other thing I've been asking all guests. at the end of every episode is if there's a secret that you want to pass [01:04:00] along you know, help somebody out, particularly maybe a younger version of yourself or just other musicians that, you know, out there in the scene, like what's something that you think would be helpful, whether it's a mindset, a specific tip, anything like that, that would be, good to know as a younger person starting out to help them navigate the scene. Brian: first of all, thank you for having me When you said your younger self, I thought, well, that's interesting. Learn the business is the first thing. Recognize that it is a business. Don't pin developing your identity On your business. Work to live. Don't live to work. I tried it the other way. And every girlfriend I had, music comes first. You know, then I'd be out on the road, not making a dime, and making the wrong choices or doing dumb things. just being kind of stubborn. I wasn't open to opportunities. I briefly dated this woman and one of the dates, she said, I want to take you to my palm reader. And I thought, Oh my [01:05:00] God, palm reader, really? But because I was smitten with her at the time, I said, okay, so we go. And he's doing this and that. And he's like, You're going to make a lot of money and be very successful in the music business, but it's not going to happen until later in life. And it's not going to be as a drummer. two things occurred to me. wow, what an idiot? Why am I here? And the other thing was, holy shit. What if he's right? But I never articulated that. And here I am, 30 years later, and that's exactly what happened. And it's not because he read my palm. It's because I think he realized that as we get older, we begin to let go of some of our Idiosyncrasies and nuances and closely held beliefs and determinations about the way the world should be and has to be, you know, when Darren and I met and teamed up, it was just a different opportunity and I will always, always be [01:06:00] grateful to him. for talking to me about it and saying, Hey, we should do this. Why don't you come up here? and I'll always be grateful that I had just enough where with all of myself to think, maybe I should try this. It's still in the music world. But it might be something different. And I've tried this one thing for a long time. I began to open my eyes to learning the business as we went. that was a hindrance, but it was also a help. other than that, I think you have to, have to look in the mirror and really be honest with yourself, who you are, I've met more than a couple of people who they wanted to be musicians, you know, I'm going to be this or that, and. I've tried to give people the benefit of the doubt and I've listened or I've sat and jammed with them. I still play drums every day. I practiced a little before I came over this morning and, and sometimes it's just like, nope, you don't, you can't, you're not, you're not. And I don't want to discourage them, I don't necessarily tell them that, but I'm not going to [01:07:00] invest my time in that. And that's difficult, and I try to be kind about it, but. as far as secrets go, I guess it's be open. there really are no secrets. luck is the culmination of hard work and being open to opportunities. And, Darren and I becoming friends was, I can trace that back to meeting Brian Bart and getting work from Brian Bart. And I can trace that back to in 1989, Newt Capay, the old music star in town had the Twin Cities Best Drummer Contest. And I thought I have to go to the Twin Cities and do that. And I did that. And a guy there named Jerry Smith came up and said, you're the best drummer of the bunch! I wasn't. I mean, Michael Bland and Stokely Williams were there, and, I mean, both those guys are just mind numbingly good. People don't even know that about Stokely Williams, but he was a monster drummer. [01:08:00] For whatever reason, Jerry Smith thought I was good. Jerry Smith was doing a record, and he was going to do it at Brian Bart's Logic Studios. And I had seen Brian Bart as a guitar player for Dareforce in Eau Claire when I was growing up. And I thought, how will I ever meet that guy? And the next thing you know, I'm in his studio you know, I suppose I'm not always the easiest guy to get to know, but in that instance, when I'm, when I have my drums with me and it's music based, I probably had an easier going manner and Brian Bart's a very easy going guy and we just hit it off. And at the end of that session, he's like, you know, you're pretty good. And I like the sound of your drums. Hey, I've got a couple other things I might have you on. Can I get your number? Because it was before cell phones. I take the risk, take a risk. There's one thing of doing that drum contest. I meet Jerry. Jerry has me record out at Brian Bart's. I meet Brian. Brian starts calling me through Brian. I get the session to do this other recording session. Darren's on it. [01:09:00] I meet Darren. Darren says, Hey, you and I get along pretty well. Maybe we should do this. We start that. maybe there's a book in there if I was ever savvy enough to write it, but that's the secret. Follow your opportunities, do your homework, be honest with yourself. And that's been my story to this point, where we go from here, who knows, but I really appreciate you taking the time to let me talk Stephen: I appreciate you being here and, sharing your stories, your insights, in the groove as a, Is a great company as you've attested to with the ethos and how you've run things. I know a lot of musicians that speak highly of it. and that have music with you guys. so I encourage people that are, that have that talent, that have the knowledge and know what they're doing to reach out, not just, don't bother. If you, If you haven't gotten it figured out yet, Brian: if you have questions and you want to learn, that's part of advocating for the artist Stephen: do you do educational stuff through in the groove or do you have any resources you would point out if, I mean, that's part of what [01:10:00] I'm doing. And essentially we will be doing more episodes that will dive into some of those specifics, but do you recommend any others? Brian: I'd like to, and I think, several on the staff would like to because I think it's Stephen: Well, maybe let's connect and the staff can come and we'll make some specific educational episodes. Brian: Yeah, that'd be fun. Stephen: but I agree because everybody does have to start somewhere. This isn't to say, Hey, if you don't know what you're doing, you know, forget you. It's just Brian: Well, I don't be afraid to reach out. I mean, send an email. lot of times they get tossed, but like I said, this guy reached out to me, today and I will respond. you know, if you're honest and you just say, I have a few questions. Stephen: to try. and it never hurts to ask questions and all that stuff. Just don't be surprised if you don't get responses in those cases too. Brian: And the thing I will say, and this is one of Darren's greatest attributes is he will never give up. There were people who told us, no. He called me one time, he was on a, a sales trip to Detroit and he called me, he was almost in tears. And I said, [01:11:00] where are you at? I'm in a parking lot, an empty parking lot, somewhere. He said, every meeting I had canceled, what do I do? And I said, catch your flight and come back home. Pick it up. he came back, he and I talked within a couple of days he was, he was onto the next thing. you know, he cried a little bit or he got bummed a little bit or whatever, but then he let it go and that was the end of it. And now we laugh about it. Stephen: Yeah. And he's done quite well. Brian: Yeah. So you'll get a lot of no's. No doesn't mean no. It just means I'm busy and I don't want to think about. what you want to talk to me about. Stephen: So true. Brian: So you just keep trying. Stephen: That might be the secret right there. Brian: Yeah. Keep trying. I mean, that's all I've ever Yeah. Well, thank you so much. If there's, if people want to connect with you personally, or in the groove, or maybe some of the bands that you're playing in, are there any, do you have a place that you want to send people to, to learn more about, about [01:12:00] you or those other resources, other connections? most of it, you go to win the groove music, www. itgmusic. com I think is the website these days. you know, there are little bios on everybody. There are ways to connect with everybody there. I think all the emails are there. You know, you can send me an email if you want to know more about me. I had a side project called Q the sun, Q U E T H E S U N. com. You can find a little bit about me there. That's something I do for my, for myself. other than that, Probably through In the Groove is the easiest one. And like I say, you have questions or want to know more, shoot an email. If it works out, might set up a phone call. I've done that plenty. I mean, people who want to intern, we always make time for them. Whether or not they wind up being interns, we'll try to talk to them, and I'll try to go downtown and invite them down so they can see the place. Sometimes parents have called or [01:13:00] reached out, Hey, my child wants to get into music. Would you be willing to talk to them? My default answer is yes, because if we don't pass on what we know, How do future generations build upon that? They don't, they're just going to repeat the same mistakes. And, as a subculture or as a broader culture or as a society or as civilization, we have to help each other grow and move forward. the only way to do that is pass on the little bit that we know. To the people who are coming up who express an interest in what we've done. Stephen: Well, I appreciate you passing on what you have today. And I can attest to being true in the past. You know, I've reached out to you and my other co writer, Dan, and, and you've taken time to, to meet with us and to host us and to answer questions. it's appreciated. I think it's what keeps this music scene healthy. And I encourage more people to do that if they can. And. But thank you so much for your time today. We got to wrap this thing up [01:14:00] for everybody that made it this far in. Thank you so much for listening, for watching. please share this with somebody else that you think might, enjoy the podcast or enjoy this episode specifically and until next time, thank you so much.