Ep. 39: Booking Festivals and Balancing Band Life with Maygen and the Birdwatcher

[00:00:00] Stephen: Welcome to Secrets from the Scene. My name is Stephen Helving, and I'm your host. Today, I have Noah Newman and Megan Lacey on as guests, and I'm really excited to talk to them about their band, Megan and the Birdwatcher. Today's episode is going to be about their experiences in the band, But also specifically about what it's like to try to book festivals as a, as an independent band. because they're in the process of doing that. They've had some big successes with booking festivals, but [00:01:00] additionally, then when you book festivals and when you start to make those kind of big goals, what it takes to keep a band together, because now you're talking about traveling across the country. they've been together for several years. different members have families, day jobs, things like that. So there are logistics at play to say the least when it comes to balancing big band goals, family, family time, and also doing things like booking festivals. So it's a little bit of a. a two part kind of, episode between actually booking festivals, but then also managing the band. I'm really excited to, to hear how they are doing it and to learn a little bit more about the band. They have really exciting things happening right now. their music's been widely acclaimed and, Yeah, I'm going to read a little bit of the bio so that people can get a sense of their history quick, and then we'll dive into the conversation. The past few years have been quite a stir for the Minnesota progressive folk rock country sextet Megan and the Birdwatcher. In late [00:02:00] 2021, they released their debut full length album, Moonshine, which Americana UK wrote is stunning, earning them Midwest Country Music Awards for the Album of the Year and Americana Artist of the Year, and landed opportunities Join festival stages with bands like Old Crow Medicine Show, Paul Cawthon, Grace Potter, and even support a childhood favorite, Travis Tritt. They've sustained that momentum over the years winning album of the year and Americana artist of the year at the 2023 Midwest country music organization's annual awards with their EP bootlegging at the flower shop. The band adventurously blurs the sounds of country bluegrass folk and blues lead singers, Megan Lacey and Noah Newman intentionally worked on the To draw on their vastly different musical influences and vocal styles to bring a fresh and unexpected mix of songs to light. Megan and the birdwatcher have released two single tracks, full moons and Jericho from their forthcoming leap year EP, which will be available August 2nd of this year, 2024 leap year was recorded by Minnesota native, acclaimed artist and guitarist extraordinaire, Eric Koskinen. [00:03:00] And they are back in the studio with producer extraordinaire, John Fields, recording their next debut album, the Americana dream. Please welcome Megan and Noah. Stephen: Hello. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thanks for being here.you guys have been busy. Okay. Maygen: Once you start, you just gotta, gotta keep that momentum going. And, um, especially with two, two songwriters and singers, we have [00:04:00] so much stuff to work on and record and put out and then go play live to support. so yeah, we've been, we've been busy. Maygen: Yeah, I was mostly, um, a mom of young kids and a studio singer, like session, session work. I did a lot of, um, and I still do session work from my home studio, which is really nice for someone with young kids to be able to still work in music, still sing and, and get that, you know, Itch scratched or something, you know, but then also be able to be much more present for, for little ones. but then, you know, that, that reached a point where it just felt like I really wanted to get out there on stages in front of people, and, uh, wound up meeting him and meeting Noah and, uh, kind of going, going from there. [00:05:00] Naturally, Noah: we met, we met at a church gig, in what, 2016, 2015, 2016, I don't know, years ago where you were singing and I was playing guitar. and you were, had your band at the time going, you guys were doing a little bit of this, that, or the other thing. And I was kind of just picking up with different bands here or there. I was actually doing some neo soul. Work at that time, which is different than this, but that's good. but we just talked, and got to know each other and realize we had some kind of similar goals and similar, they're not similar, competing strengths, I guess we were very different in what we're good at. And we always were very aware of the things we weren't good at. And we're like, Oh, that's great. You can do that. And I can do that. And that was kind of where we started and started as a duo for a few years. Stephen: So it started with just the two of you Noah: of us. Yeah. For at least a good two years. It was just us. Right. Right. Something like that. Maygen: Yeah. We recorded the EP with, um, the first producer, Jeff Allen. Yep. Noah: And Maygen: he was just on guitar only and I was singing and writing the lyrics. And [00:06:00] then we kind of grew from, from that EP into the band after that, in 2020. we really didn't do much really as a duo. We didn't see each other that much. So it was kind of a slow burn for the first duo EP. And then after that 2020 was when we got band members and we're like, okay, let's do like a full length record, full band. Have it be like more bluegrassy country. Cause the first, the first EP that we worked on together is pretty folk. Stephen: Just straight folk. Okay. So there was an element of like, we want to add a little bit more to this sound. And in order to do that, we need some more people. Maygen: And we're both kind of, I don't know if we're ADD or what it is, but like, I I just really like energy and like playing as a duo. And I wasn't even playing guitar. Like it was just kind of boring to me some people absolutely love, you know, just themselves and the guitar. Me personally, I just feel, I hear so much other stuff going on in my head that like, why not try to make that happen in reality and have more players and, you know, do [00:07:00] the whole, the whole song that I'm already hearing in my head, you know, Stephen: Yeah, definitely. So when you guys decided to reach out to members, was that an easy process or did that take some time? Noah: Surprisingly, relatively easy. We knew enough people. Around the scene and just experience with playing in other bands and other areas that we filled it up pretty quickly. And the, or most of the original folks we had are still with us. We, we do have a, a rotating cast of bass players. But, you know, besides that, Maygen: I mean, Chase has been solid for the past year, but we, yeah, but it will Noah: rotate again in the future cause he's moving. So, that's kind of been the thing, but yeah, I mean, the folks that we found right away have been with us and we've been pretty lucky for those who've wanted to play with us. So Stephen: yeah. That's good. you start the band, you do the full debut album. That's like 2021 ish. That comes out. that in October, 2021 moonshine. Yeah, and you [00:08:00] start getting more and more recognition. So, how has that momentum, how has it felt? Like, how has it built over the years? Like, what, what have the last few years been like for the band as it's started to like, become more recognizable? Maygen: I would say really exciting. also a little bit exhausting. and you know, mostly exciting because some people make music just for themselves and it makes them feel happy. I, I personally. Cause I want to share it with people. I want people to love it or dance around to it in their kitchen or, you know, give us feedback on, Oh, this song meant this to me or whatever. So it's been a really cool few years of hearing, you know, and seeing people react to what we've made and, Being able to build audiences and have more people or play festivals where you're playing in front of a lot of people. is, you know, the goal. And so it's really cool to [00:09:00] be able to, to see, you know, more people recognizing us and, you know, coming out and wanting to see our set and things like that. It's, it's cool, you know? Noah: yeah, it's, it definitely shifts your priorities and I think it's so interesting like being on the outside and like thinking about what, like, success, which I don't know if whatever, whatever success would look like for us, because, you know, we, we still very rarely even play regional, But it is cool, at least just internally feeling like, Oh, wow, we've finally been able to do some of these things that I've dreamed of, not even necessarily like with how much exposure we've had, but just like, you know, recording things that sound good, being happy with the way things come together, things like that. You know what I mean? Like that's what I've more, been attracted to and kind of put my Stephen: hat on. So. Yeah. Well, and, and getting bigger opportunities. Right. so along the way, you know, I was reading in the, the bio that you guys got some pretty cool, like opening slots with, you know, notable acts. How did that all come [00:10:00] together? Noah: Each one was a little different. Maygen: there's a, an organization that I've been a part of, since before Megan and the birdwatcher, which is the Midwest country music organization. And I joined that just as just Megan Lacey, you know, cause I also had released songs just under Megan Lacey. And. They're a wonderful organization just of like our state area, you know, like the Dakotas, Iowa, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin. I think that's it. Maybe a couple of Michigan, Noah: something like that Maygen: and they're just a really cool organization of, so many different artists and then also venues and anyone radio stations and anyone that's involved in music or country music or Some form of country music, since it's kind of so wide, such a wide variety these days, of being able to lift each other up and spread the word and play, regional artists on their radio stations, things like that. They also have an annual award show. So we [00:11:00] won, a couple of awards, our first, I guess, time that we were nominated as a band and it kind of went from there, like getting recognized, you know, it is what it is. It means a lot to some people. It means nothing to other people. We're probably somewhere in the middle. It, of course, it feels good to be recognized by, people in the region, but then also your fellow artists have to, so once we won a couple of awards, then there was other people, I guess, at higher levels that took notice and were like, Oh, I want you to open up for, you know, would you like to open up for Travis Tritt? You Stephen: Right. Maygen: that was that opportunity, which was pretty cool. And then I feel like it helps when you're submitting to festivals and stuff just to say, Oh, there's a handful of things that we've achieved on our own, you know, through decent music or, being good entertainers or whatever that, At least some bookers can look at and be like, okay, well they've accomplished a few things. Let me press play on their music at least and give them a shot. Noah: And it's kind of like what we were talking about off air, but [00:12:00] just like what does it mean to win an award? Probably not much, but then people go, oh, that must be good then in that case, who knows if it actually is, but Hey, at least, you know, now that's a way for people to go, okay, this person did that. Sounds good. Stephen: Well, there's decision fatigue, you know, if you think about it from, let's say a booking agent, talent buyer perspective, Hey, I need to find somebody to fill a spot. And you're looking through 50 different band resumes, so to speak. Well, the one that's got a bunch of awards in it, you go, well, that must be good. there you go. And you might start with that because maybe you just don't have time to listen to all of them. And that's, that's the reality of how these things work. So yeah, awards. Whether they're artistically important, they are socially important. Uh, and they help people make decisions faster the same way that everybody on Spotify generally, when you're looking up someone you do is going to start with the most played There Noah: you go. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Maygen: I try not to do it, but I do it. Noah: Almost always is not the best like description of the artist. It just [00:13:00] tends to be something. I know. Something so random. You know what I mean? It tends to be, or like it was in a movie or something like that, but that's the way it goes. Yeah. Stephen: But that's how it goes. Yeah. And playing to that and understanding it and using it to your advantage is smart. Denying that it's the way that humans work is, it's not going to help I think that's cool. And, you know, I've had at least one or two other guests that have also, you know, been involved with the Midwest country music awards, if that's the name of the organization. Yeah. I find that what a great organization like There's not an equivalent of that in other genres. Maygen: I mean, I would've said, or, what was it? The MMC, Stephen: Minnesota Music Maygen: Oh, the coalition. Yes. The Minnesota Music Coalition, I thought was yes. I thought was just fantastic. I thought it really was, and they had. They had a good run. They had a lot of programs that I went to and I went to some of the classes and met up with, you know, a lot of people in the Minneapolis or twin cities area. When I was first [00:14:00] starting to try to get out and do music. And I thought they were great. wish they were still around, but all things take volunteers and volunteers get tired. Noah: Yeah. Maygen: So, Noah: and even just outside of like the awards, it's just a good, like, Opportunity and spot to just find other people who are good, you know, like with decision fatigue. There's also just like new music fatigue. Like I don't have time really to just search around and try to find stuff. So when there's something like this that, you know, we can be a part of and find contemporaries who are talented and good. It's just, it's just fun. Stephen: Yeah, it's convenient, and it's fun, and yeah, Maygen: people in different states that, you know, they can help introduce you to their state Stephen: can reciprocate, Maygen: and just be Noah: inspired Stephen: by it. And stuff like that. So, Yeah. Cool. So, you know, you start getting a little bit of these sort of press and accolades and that sort of thing that leads to more opportunities. and there's sort of a snowball effect, I'm sure, you know, how much of those of these opportunities over the years and maybe specifically some of the big shows, but [00:15:00] anything that comes to mind is you guys going out and saying, Hey, I want that versus somebody coming to you and saying, we heard about you. 95, Maygen: 98. 5, 98. 5%. seeing something and saying, okay, that's my new goal for next year or the year after that it's, you got to kind of shoot long cause you have to lay a lot of groundwork to hopefully achieve the goal. Noah: earlier this year. We, we played, was it Appleton? I'm thinking that Appleton beer factory where the promoter was like, Megan just wouldn't leave me alone. The only reason you guys are playing here just because Megan would not leave me Maygen: alone. And that's Noah: why you're here. Maygen: He said I was tenacious. And I say, thank Noah: you. You were tenacious. Okay. No, but I'm just saying like, that's what it was. It's like you, we're playing this show because we wouldn't not play the show. You know what I mean? That's kind of what it was. And he's like, and I, and it was great. You know what I mean? It was, it was. I apologize. And it was, it was great. You know, very well received. So it was not like we shouldn't have been playing it, but it was just like, sometimes that's what it is. You've [00:16:00] just bothered somebody into submission. And you're very good at that, Megan. Maygen: Thank you. I appreciate that. no, but that's only some circumstances where I do my research and I really feel like. I know my band better than anyone else, you know, and, and I know the places where I feel we would do best. Or there's the, you know, there's just a certain type of people that go to shows at this venue and I want to help some of those bookers know, like, no, really, we are a good fit for you. You know, there's not that many that I do that with, but, but Mark at Appleton beer factory, I did, I, he's a cool guy. He, yeah, it was good. Stephen: There's just too scared to keep asking or like, I'm gonna bother somebody or I'm gonna be annoying or whatever. So Maygen: something to be said for that though, too. I, I have a feeling there's a handful of venues that have decided this. This girl's annoying. [00:17:00] I'm not going to respond ever, you know, and that's okay. Then that just means that's, you know, they're not our people. We shouldn't play there. There's other, every town has a handful of options. And if people don't like, you know, the way I, I email or I call, that's okay. Noah: Yeah. You know, I think it's good to, to, or just accept. It's not gonna be everything. You know, you're not gonna Oh, absolutely. Be the right fit Stephen: yeah, of course Noah: all the time. Stephen: But you'll never know Noah: But you never know. Stephen: you ask. And I think that the problem is probably weighted more the other way. And I think that You're a hundred percent right. You've got the best attitude about it, which is okay. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work, but you're not afraid to ask, which means You're going to get more opportunities because you Maygen: sure. Yeah. Everyone who works very hard at emailing and calling and trying hard will have the days where you just like, God, I just want to give up because no response at all is really hard to take over and over and over again. You [00:18:00] know, it is because it just, to me, I look at the way that I respond to emails and it doesn't take long to say, We'll pass this year, but thanks, or something so short, so that's easy for me to do. And so I think sometimes like, why is it so hard for someone to just have a little bit of one second to just. Say that to me, but you really can't think too hard about it because you never know how busy people are. Everyone's so busy. Everyone's email boxes are so full. And here's this Megan Lacey, the 12th time in a row, I'm just going to continue to not respond. That's, you know, it's okay. You know, you just got to move on and Stephen: more times than not. If you're not getting a response, at least from what I found is it's not being seen or it's not being opened or there's just not enough time, a lot of times that is the case for people. And so I do think that you're way better off asking too much than too [00:19:00] little.if you're trying to accomplish something, know, is okay. I know is okay. As long as you're being polite, you know, about how you are approaching people in terms of your wording, I guess, then There's not a good enough reason in my opinion to get upset. Like if you don't want to be emailed that many times, you could simply just say no thanks and be right. Exactly. I think it's okay. That this is the business we're in. Maygen: Yeah. And if you're in a position like that and you are a booker or a festival promoter or whatever, you know, that's part of the, that's part of the gig. You're going to get emailed so much by so many people. so, yeah, I mean, you know. I'm sure they all understand that there's going to be different levels of people that email them. There's the kind that email once and never bother them again. And then there's the people like me that continue on. So, and Stephen: my rule of thumb is follow up until you get a no, [00:20:00] you then once you get to know, move on, Yeah, of course. Yeah. I don't try to change anybody's mind. Once it's a no, it's a no, but. If I didn't get a response, then I'm going to keep emailing. I might change my cadence over time, you know, and, and, stretch it out depending if there's a deadline. you know, obviously if you've got an opportunity that, you know, has a deadline, you're going to have to fit your cadence. Within that timeframe, you know, a lot of the emailing that I'm doing might be inviting a guest onto the podcast, or it might be, following up with somebody that reached out to me for studio time. And there's a surprising amount of people that aren't great at email, you know, they're just, I'll get an email and, you know, like, Hey, I want to, I want to do a project that studio. Let's talk details, whatever. And I'll respond like, great, let's set it up. Here's a booking link. I'll never hear from him again. You know, and it's like, those are the ones that I'll, I'll just keep following up with until they either say, Oh yeah, something changed or, or [00:21:00] whatever, you know, but sometimes you just got to stick with it. Maygen: absolutely. And, I feel like a lot of people, especially when it comes to festivals, There's a submission period, you know, or like a, a time where you submit your band to say, I want to play this festival. And then of, a lot of people might just leave it at that. but I find that it has been, especially for the ones that you're very interested in playing. It's really good to just touch base with that person or that email a few other times in the not so heavy traffic times, you know. Just check in a few months later. Maybe you didn't get the slot or whatever, but you still want to play the festival next year or the year after that you want to stay on their radar. So just. Send a little email like, Oh, we just released this video, thought you might want to see it. Or, Oh, I see that you, had this artist, you know, booked for next year. Love them. They're super great. With no other connection, no other, I want something from [00:22:00] you, but just a little, yeah. Just a little check in to get your band name in their email inbox one more time during a not busy time and just kind of stay on them. And eventually I feel like, you know, if you're a friendly person and you are somewhat around the type of music that that festival or that venue might book, eventually I think you'll, you'll get the opportunity, you know, Stephen: I love that. I think, you know, in the business world, that's essentially, you know, staying top of mind, right? Where instead of trying to hit somebody when everyone else is trying to hit them up, you can say hello in other ways around that. And it works to establish a relationship rather than just asking something from somebody. and in this business, but in, in pretty much all industries, relationships are crucial. If you personally know the Booker or their friend, your odds go way up. That's how this thing goes. so. Obviously, you can't do that [00:23:00] with every opportunity. You don't have time to make friends with everybody. But, but by staying top of mind, by being friendly, by being at least on the radar more, then you're getting closer to that feeling, you know? Yeah. It's a good strategy. Okay. So we've already, we've already broken into like half of the techniques of putting festivals and stuff, but why don't we kind of take it from the top of, all right, you guys see a festival that you want to play. What is your process? How do you go about doing this from the start? Maygen: would say the very start is to have something decent sounding to listen to before you ever try to play a festival. Now, there are plenty, especially in bluegrass world, there are plenty of bands. That play, festivals that don't have recorded music yet. And so I can't speak to what their process is or how they get booked without, music. But I personally have found it to be very helpful to have a [00:24:00] product to say, go to Spotify, iTunes, band camp, whatever. Here's our music, to listen to I'm interested in playing your festival. aside from having music to listen to really, It's a bit of a long game generally because, number one, if you're a new band, it's good to just establish yourself with as many, people in the music community as you can. but then also say like a festival, blue ox festival in, in Eau Claire, that was one of our very first goals of like, we really want to play that. Social media, I know it's not for everyone, but again, I can only speak to what we have done. Social media is a really, really big deal. I went ahead and like a year before we ever even released music, I tagged them on a couple things. I don't remember what it was, but it was just like little stories of stuff saying like, tagging Blue Ox Festival saying, you know, Looking forward to trying to play there [00:25:00] someday or something, some little thing. You never know if we, cross their mind or, or their screen, you know, our band name, who knows if they took interest at that point at all, probably not. but little check ins commenting on, whatever they were up to, you know, their posts or their lineup announcements, just getting your band name out there and seen in the circles that you want to people to start recognizing. Noah: It's crazy how much we'll hear feedback from people like, Oh, I saw you popped up here and there and, and here. And I keep seeing your name on all these different spots. Like, and I think social media is, you know, like playing other shows is great for that, but also just the social media aspect or having the interaction with other people just makes your name there. It's available. it's ready to Stephen: be seen. How much research goes into the festival itself Maygen: typically what, what I have done is, Number one, it's a festival I think is great because [00:26:00] say like Jason Isbell and the 400 unit, are headlining and wow, I really like them. Okay. Well, I don't know any of these bands underneath, so I'm going to go check out all these bands. Wow. This is really cool music. Oh, that's cool. that's sort of like what we sound like. I think we could be a good fit for that, this festival suite. So then, Really being involved in as many little pockets of communities that those bands are involved in. It's like, you know, that web of just trying to dig in to stuff that I think is, is cool. Like the artists that I think are cool and who are they, you know, commenting, where are they commenting or who are they socializing with or whatever? and just trying to, Be social and be in community with people that we think might like our music as well, because we like their music. Noah: Developing friendships with other bands too helps because, you know, we'll get opportunities, they'll get opportunities. So it's good to kind of share [00:27:00] those and say, Oh yeah, this one, you guys would be a great fit here. Or maybe not that one, you Stephen: yeah. And that happens over time as you play more shows and that sort of thing. But when you say like trying to, you know, get into that web of different little communities that you're still basically talking online interaction. Maygen: For, so what has, what has changed? Really worked for me. Is, Instagram and Facebook. I'm not like Twitter or anything else. Are you? You're not. Noah: I tweet a little Yeah, I tweet a little. I have my moments. Karen Tweets a little. You're, Maygen: you're, you're basketball though. I mean, you're not like music. I did the Noah: important things. . Maygen: Okay. Maybe we could sing the national anthem in the next Wolves game. That's great. But yeah, so a lot of it is social media starts out at social media, but then a lot of it is follow through with, Oh my gosh, you know, like we're going to play blue ox. Let's, Say hi there, you know, like let's meet up and then, you know, the, the real relationships can start. Stephen: You can only go so far on, on socials, but it's a [00:28:00] really great start to, trying to connect deeper hopefully by going to festivals or getting to play festivals and, meet people that way as well. with the bands that you see playing at festivals and then trying to meet them and then working your kind of way up the chain of like, who do I contact for this? Or like, how does the research go in terms of submitting or, you know, figuring out who's important to talk to in order to get that opportunity? Maygen: usually it is, going to the festivals website there's many different forms of festivals and levels, you know, there's, there's a handful that are very like, they'll say right on their website, like we are a no submission festival. We'll contact you if we are interested. And then you're like, okay, so you never, you know, but like the majority of them have either that, you know, the box where you have to fill out your information and you don't get anyone's email, which is. It's fine. I get it. or they have, you know, a contact email, even if it's just an info at [00:29:00] whatever, it's at least an email, to start with. Sometimes you get a response from not the info. And then I just have a spreadsheet full of as much information as I can gather. Like when I get an email back and it's not info, then I'll go ahead and add the person's email to my spreadsheet, you know, just keep as much. information as I can and if they responded at all, or did I fill out the contact form and there was no email, you know, a lot of note, note keeping to try Stephen: Talk a little bit about that specifically, like, what, what do you keep track of in your spreadsheet? Maygen: so, I started a spreadsheet basically when we started the band just to start collecting because you can only search through your emails as successfully as, you know, sometimes you're successful and other times you're like, I have no idea what I did, you know, last year about this. so I started a spreadsheet that basically has, there's many tabs. One is venues and one [00:30:00] is festivals and et cetera. There's plenty of info, but the festivals one is just, the name of the festival. when it is, you know, second week in August or whatever, things like that. when the submission window is roughly that one's kind of hard to keep track of sometimes. I feel like maybe it's not exactly the same always over the years, but at least generally an idea of when people are accepting submissions. Email address, person to contact if there is a name.what else is on that spreadsheet? Stephen: you keep track of how many times you contact them and when and all that? Maygen: yeah. So then also bands that we're familiar with that have played the festival. A lot of times that's how I find the festivals is bands that I think are really cool or similar to us or bands that are ahead of us by a few years that Okay, that's the next jump, you know, that's the [00:31:00] next goal See what they're playing add that festival to the spreadsheet do the whole process go to the festival's website figure out who to email You know, and so at this point our festivals sheet is some hunt a couple hundred probably across the country and Then yeah Pretty big, submission in the, in the fall ish time for summer festivals. So that's kind of the main note of like, did the mass, the massive email to all of these things. but not like, I've never done a stock email where you just say, Hi, we're Megan and the Birdwatcher. We'd love to play your festival. Thanks. Or anything like that. try to personalize it a little bit by, Again, this is so much work. It just, it's, I can't stress enough. Like maybe some people don't have to work so hard, but I personally think it's important to have a personal touch and show that you care about each. Festival individually, who they've had [00:32:00] headline, who they've had play, the area of the country and why you think it's cool. Just a couple little things that are specific to that festival when you reach out because. We're artists. We get stock emails from people all the time where it's like, I like your music. I want to promote you where it's like, if somebody just said that they liked this specific song or they liked this specific thing that helped me know that they actually know about my band, I'm going to respond a lot sooner than feeling like they probably don't actually know me at all. Stephen: A personal touch really goes a long ways. Maygen: Yeah, so, a lot of work in the fall to try to set up for the next summer. and then some follow ups I'd say every two or three weeks until you hear the nose or the try again next month. And then set the little, the little calendar reminder, snooze the email until it's time to follow up again. You know, it's a lot of follow ups for sure. [00:33:00] [00:34:00] [00:35:00] Stephen: Do you, have you had any sort of tricks or tips that you find have helped make the decision from some festivals? Like, you know, you had mentioned having something really good to listen to when you're like, yes, when we've had the better our music's gotten, that's obviously been something we can say has helped us get more shows or when I email more specifically, more personally, that's helped get better shows or it's the follow ups. The ones that get the most followups are tend to be the most successful or anything like that, that stands out to you. That's really important to this process or perhaps something you've learned of like, this is what doesn't work. Don't do this. Maygen: a handful of times I have noticed, a little bit more action, when I have followed up With just one other thing, like, Hey, just wanted to update you. We released a music video. Here it is. That's it. You know, without saying, Oh, by the way, you know, Stephen: Oh, kind of like in the off [00:36:00] season, so to speak. Yeah. Maygen: have to be in the off season. It could be, you know, we submit to Midwest Music Fest or whatever. And then a month later, you know, you know, they're still kind of sifting through the lineups or whatever they want to do, but you haven't heard from them yet. Just some other reason to get in their email without saying, Hey, how are submissions going? Are you going to book us this year? You know, like have a different reason to email them.that at least gets a response. And then sometimes it gets a response with, you know, I'm still considering you for the festival. You'll hear from us within a week or two or whatever. So that's been kind of cool. Sometimes there's been a couple where I, we've had, a band friend, or two that have played a festival, but I haven't heard from the fest, but I've submitted, it's kind of nice sometimes to say, Hey friend, you know, you've played here. Is there, do you have a tip or anything that could help us kind of like move the needle a little further to [00:37:00] maybe they'll book us this year. I don't do that that often, but for, for once that we're stuck on, you know, it's nice to have friends in, in bands that will be like, Oh yeah, let me just, email the book or really quick and see if whatever. So, that's nice. That's helped a couple of times. Noah: I mean, I think they just want to know that you're going to have a good live show, you know, at whatever way you can translate that to them, that it's going to be, you know, entertaining at least is good because I think a lot of the times it seems like from at least the feedback I've gotten is that there's always a few, some slots for like, let's just take a chance on these guys. I don't really know much about them, but yeah. we're going to have this spot for them, you know, there's generally like a stage where it's like the, the shed stage or something like that. You know what I mean? Where you can kind of just put a band, but I think, making it known that you can be on the bigger stage and having that life. So presence, even before you even go and play there, making that known to them, is good. But in reality, you kind of need all the tips and all the tricks, cause you don't know what's [00:38:00] going to be the thing that. That turns this person's crank. And I don't know that we hear a lot. What did it? We just, we just did it, you know? Yeah. Maygen: But also vice versa for what you said. Another thing that I like to say is our configuration can change because. We've gone and played a festival as a duo, you know, on the small side stage or the singer songwriter stage. That's fine. That's a foot in the door. Stephen: Yeah. Maygen: Cool. I just want to make a good impression, share our songs, meet some new people in the town, make some new fans and then go back the next year or the year after that with a full band. Yeah. Give a whole different kind of show, you know, Noah: not everybody can do that, but it definitely works for us that we can play into this kind of configuration as we can play to, we can play seven, you know what I mean? We can, and all in between there so that we use that to our advantage to be able to say, yeah, we can, we can say yes to these things because we can do them. However, we need to do Stephen: to the booking process that we haven't gone over that you feel is necessary to talk about? Maygen: nothing that we haven't gone [00:39:00] over. I just can't stress enough. Like a lot of people. And myself included, you know, when we were, when we were starting out, it's hard to see other people get a gig and be like, Oh, how did they get it? You know, but it's like, the more you do it, the more you realize, well, they got it by a lot of hard work, a lot of following up a lot of staying positive, you know, positive attitude. You really, you don't want to start being, curmudgeony and pissed off and jealous and, and all of that, because it's, you're going to like plateau exactly where you start getting, getting that way. Because, It's just a grateful game, at least the way we do it. Like trying to keep a positive outlook for, moving forward and moving onward and upward and being happy for other people that get stuff that you don't get. That's, that's cool. Everyone's got their journey. So, Noah: yeah, there's oftentimes where we'll be playing a gig and we'll be like, I don't know, this doesn't really feel like a gig for us, but we try to change our mindset to always, well, you never know. Who's going to be there. You never know who you're going to impact. There's been so many [00:40:00] times that we've like, Stephen: just Noah: been at a thing where it's like, ah, we're not really good fit here. Or maybe this, I mean, let's just be honest. So some gigs, you just feel like, ah, this is kind of like a, whatever gig, a throwaway gig, but then we'll be like, yeah, this guy we met has been the stage manager at hinterlands for 20 years. You know what I mean? Like you never know, you never know who you run into and meet and what that can lead to. So I think it's, it's, we always try to have at least that intention of like, well, we might reach one person, but you know, that might be the right person to reach. Stephen: Yeah, it's definitely, I mean, having a positive attitude and keeping that mindset is important, but it's easier said than done, especially as you get busier and busier and you have more things pulling at your schedule and you're making more sacrifices for the band and things like that. which I think is kind of the next part of this conversation we can jump over to, which is, you know, keeping that band together as you start to. Expand your goals. You start to travel. I know you guys are going out to east coast and sort [00:41:00] of west coast too, right? Maygen: Tennessee, not, not West Coast this year. Not West Coast this year. Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri, Stephen: that's a lot of travel time Noah: in a short amount of time to, yeah, we're doing it all right away. A lot of driving. we usually try to do one extended trip per summer. You know, there's, there's, there's so many opportunities that even just in this general area, which we can do, which is great, but we always try to set aside time. So last year we did like Montana, Colorado, South Stephen: Okay, Noah: that. Yeah. So then this year there's really, well, we should try to head East, you know, and, and do that. Maygen: And there's plenty of bands that do all of it. I mean, there's. There's so many bands that make a life while traveling, but for us, that's not the case. we have families and, Jobs and Noah: mortgages, things like that, you know, got to pay those things. So yes, that is always a fun balancing act to try to figure out. I am new, into the family for X. I have a 10 month old, so yes, thank you. Appreciate it. But that has [00:42:00] been a whole new journey of trying to figure that out. you just don't want to say no to anything, especially both of us. It's really hard to say no, even on the gigs were like these gigs are average. It's like, well, but maybe we should still go out there. Maybe we should do that. So I think. It is so important to find that balance of what does, what you can say no to. We've definitely not found that balance. So we're still Stephen: Okay. Noah: to figure it out because then it'll be the end of the year. We're like, why do we book so many things? How are we going to do all this? Maygen: Okay. Well, the truth comes out. No, no, no. I, I feel like we're good at some balance because, like for example, one, one of the things with my family is birthdays are really important anniversaries. all of those things, there's plenty of bands that travel during those, but for my family, no way. I'm not doing a gig on any of my family's birthdays, you know, that kind of stuff. So like, there's a lot of blackout dates where we just don't take [00:43:00] gigs and that keeps like a very base base level anniversary. That's true. Yes. Level of like. There's always Noah: those things. Yeah. And I, and I don't mean to be like, we're bad at that because like we're, we are making mistakes. It's just, we have this pole all the time to be like, right. What else we should be doing more? You know, we have a weekend where there's not a gig, it's like, why don't we have a gig right now? But then, you know, it's like you have to maxim. It's all about maximizing your time either on the road or at home. You Stephen: Yeah. there's two opposing feelings, which is let's do as much as we can, but let's keep this thing going for as long as we can. And they don't always go together. because in the short term, if you do take every gig, as you were saying, with that mindset of, you never know, somebody could be there. Which is true. It is true. But what you, what I do know is if you do that forever, you will burn out. And so there has to be a line where you go, this is worth our time and this is not worth our time because your time is [00:44:00] valuable. You have other things. When you're just starting a band, you're in high school, you're in college, whatever, and you don't have as many priorities in your life yet. Your job is super flexible or whatever. You can say yes to so many more things and be okay with it. You're learning, you're playing, but when you get further down that line and you have families or careers, just any other priorities that are less flexible, you have to now start setting a threshold Yeah, there might be somebody there or this might be a good opportunity, but we can, it doesn't hit our threshold, but it's really hard to figure that out on a band basis. There's personal thresholds, but then somebody else's threshold is here and somebody else's threshold is here. And so then there's conflict over, I think we should take that gig. I shouldn't. Mm-Hmm. That's where this thing Difficult where somebody might say, yeah, that gig in Maryland is awesome. And how could you not want to do it? You know? And, and the other person's like, yeah, I [00:45:00] don't have time for that. Yeah, it Noah: is that tough balance. Um, does the conversation work in your band? Like, how does that, how does that begin? I mean, it's, it's just the two of us who kind of make that booking decision. And then it comes down to if band members can't do it, well, then it's, we figured that out. So, and that's kind of change. Yeah. Maygen: When we first set out, you know, to be a band and then travel, it's funny. I was just watching one of your episodes, the project manager stuff. And yeah, I, I thought it was great. It was something that we did not do, which was when we have a band. I mean, we were super excited to have the members that we did, but we didn't have a conversation about traveling and touring, you know? So when that conversation came up, it was like, Oh, we want to tour. We want to like, you know, let's go to Colorado. Then all of a sudden it's like, okay, well, some people are not very interested in traveling or can't for reason, family or work or whatever, Noah: or they were, and now they have a different job. And now it's, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, now they're [00:46:00] just doing different things. Yeah. Maygen: So that's kind of when subs, The idea of being able to have subs kind of came into our life because we don't, again, we don't like to say no to opportunities. And so if somebody can't, can't make the gig in Colorado, we'll find someone who can, hopefully, hopefully, Noah: or figure something else out. Yeah. Maygen: and. That's worked out pretty well. And it's also kind of great to start establishing, you know, that many more musicians in this awesome community of people that we know that we're friendly with, that we travel with and, it makes things more achievable, you know, moving forward, knowing that there's, we know most people. Some people that can travel Noah: and it, again, it's work, but it's also good works because sometimes it's like, great, we're on our fifth base player who I'm calling, you know, the first four guys are not available, but then eventually a lot of times you find you like, it opens up a door to a whole nother world of like musicians and opportunities and contacts and things that you would never expect, you know what I [00:47:00] mean? to come out, but it benefits us in the Stephen: long run. Yes. I think that there's a couple things I want to break down from that, which is for one, I think it's unique that there's two of you that get to kind of make the decision and then the rest of the band has to kind of fall into place. I want to get into that more, but let's stay on topic, sure. Maygen: Let's not piss off our band members. Stephen: Yeah, no, well, it's, it's unique. obviously there's lots of other bands that do that with either just one band leader or two or, or, or so on. And then there's bands that are completely democratic, The fact that you guys can be modular in the sense that, okay, we could do this as two or three or four, and then we can do this as seven. That gives you one option. So, okay, so and so can't do it. Maybe this opportunity is also going to be good with a smaller ensemble. So that's flexibility, number one. The next thing is we're willing to use subs. Now, some people are going to be like, yeah, of course, that's how it works. But let's talk a little bit about the substitution game, for people that have never [00:48:00] considered it or like, What are you talking about? Somebody else can play this person's part, you know? I did it a lot with the band that I the last band that I was in and it is really really great But it takes a lot more work, but the concept is clear It's easy is that you have a few musicians that can sub in if somebody can't make it Generally, that's going to be the backing band. So Somebody who's not the lead singer. you'd almost never sub that out. Although you still can, depending on, depending on the type of band and the type of opportunity. obviously if you know, you're being booked for a very specific configuration and sound, then you can't just go and completely change it. But there are, there are groups that. Provide entertainment that's less attached to who exactly is doing it, and they can sub out their members easier. obviously like wedding bands and cover bands and things like that, they sub all the time. That's a part of how they make this thing work. [00:49:00] But you can do it with original bands too, depending on what that opportunity is. But for the sake of this conversation, let's just assume it's usually not the case. Using subs can be great. It just, you have to prepare for it. It generally means a few more rehearsals because now you have to have rehearsals with that, with that player. It also generally means you have to financially figure that out because your subs will definitely require payment and potentially more than average. depending on the level of player they are, but usually the higher they are, the easier they can sit in. They don't need as many rehearsals to get by and play that gig pretty flawlessly. but things like having a shared Google drive or Dropbox folder that has the songs, maybe has charts, maybe has isolated parts, depending on how complicated you're trying to get with stuff. All of that is a part of effectively being able to use subs. Maygen: And quickly, like being, being able to, like, even just [00:50:00] recently we had, some, one of our band members say, Oh, I actually can't do that gig. That's in three weeks. sorry. So, having, having everything that you need ready for the sub, which is what you had said, you know, the charts, um, we have a link to all of the songs, you know, that they would be playing. Noah: Find a rehearsal date. Maygen: Yeah. A rehearsal date. And then you're pretty good at that point. Noah: We're pretty lucky to also find dynamite players who, you know, well, it's a one finding players who are just good, you know, and we've been very, very fortunate to find some very, very good players who are, I don't know why they want to play with us, but they do, also to, I think also we're okay with flexibility as like recorded versus live, you know what I mean? a little thing is. If you play fiddle, you probably play mandolin as well, but you may not be as strong on one or the other. So it's like, can I play this on mandolin? Sure. You know what I mean? I just like, yeah, we have to comp these few parts, but as long as these are in here, then let's see where it Stephen: That's an, yeah, that's an important point of like playing with substitutes also means you need to [00:51:00] be somewhat flexible with your Noah: flexible. And I like that because there's a lot of times we'll be like, whoa, that's kind of a cool approach to that song. Let's do that again. Or let's dig into that more, but you know, there always is the risk of being like, Oh, you didn't really. Stephen: particularly if you sub out drummers sometimes too. It's like, okay, yeah, that's a different feel. but that can open you up to going, oh, well, that's kind of interesting. Maybe we should do that next time. Yeah. to rehearse if you're Noah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's, and it's nice cause you kind of have like the sub roster where it's like, here's three, four folks we can kind of hit and they know kind of what the general thing is. And at this point we can fill most things with that. So in a lot of ways I just look at it like the extended band, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, they're not playing with us all the time, but they play with us enough where it's like, yeah, this is just this kind of, this is this team in the way. Stephen: you know, obviously people have been doing this and continue to use subs, but It's something that you might want to start thinking about if you haven't done it. particularly if you're looking at going [00:52:00] out and booking these bigger opportunities, maybe you clicked on this episode because you're like, yeah, I want to start playing the festival. I got my first festival coming up or whatever. You need to plan for that because even if, even if everyone's on board, things come up, you know, somebody has a family emergency or a last minute change that, you know, is justifiable. They cannot make the gig anymore. Having some subs that are somewhat familiar with your music that could fake it and sit in can, can save a really huge gig Maygen: gig for you. Yep. Definitely. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. ? Definitely. Stephen: this conversation has been great and we don't need it to go on terribly longer. The only other thing I kind of wanted to circle back to if you guys want to talk about it is how that hierarchy works of like, you two started the band and we're saying that you kind of make the decisions on how to do that. How does the rest of the band fit in in terms of their role? Are they all sort of paid members? Mm hmm. Noah: Yes. So generally, and if there's anything that Megan and the birdwatcher do really well as being [00:53:00] ambiguous, everything is just a little bit of like lines blurred as far as genre, as far as what the band looks like, things like that. And that is some of it on purpose. Some of it's on accident, but, yeah. So, so generally what we want to do is, is they are consistent folks who play with us that we pay to play with us. We don't always pay them as much as we'd like to, but that is this reality. We have never personally like been, we don't, we don't generally pay ourselves out of the band and stuff like that. You know, so we, we reinvest that all back into the band, into whatever that may be. And one of the, but we own the band. Yeah. So one of those things is the members. We want to, we, we, we try to as best as we can, pay competitively. All these folks. And consistently we keep pretty much the same members and it's good, but we pay them and we would be handling them, you know, at those duties, tasks, things like that, we figure those things out. Yeah. We don't sub for one of us, you know, we will always, the two of us will always be at a gig. but yeah, that's kind of how [00:54:00] that works. Maygen: I don't know. Struggle to think, I guess, like our friends, the Fox gloves, they are every member has equal, equal, say equal, share equal, all of it. Songwriting, all of it. And, um, Boy, that would be real hard. it would be really hard just because, um, at least for us, just because, I don't know. I just feel like, probably because it started as the two of us, if I had just put out, an ad on Craigslist saying, I'd like to start a band and then everyone comes together and we have that first initial meeting. Like you were talking about with the project management stuff, where you have the first initial meeting and you talk about, you know, who's good at what, who can handle what, what are your goals? Are you, is everyone down for traveling? And then you all are on this equal level of songwriting, touring. And also responsibilities and financial commitment and all of it. [00:55:00] Then I could see like everybody having equal say, but the fact that, you know, we We pay for everything and the studio time and like, all this stuff is our responsibility. I just feel like it works better that way to, and it gives our guys an out to be like, no, I can't do that gig without a whole bunch of drama. Noah: Well, drama. Yeah. Without, or having to be like, you know, there's no like ideological differences at that point. And, and a lot of them play in other bands too. we can't expect them not to do that. If this is what they're trying to do, we can't fill every date for them. We can't make this work. So. Sometimes that's just how it is. Our drummer, Peter, often in the fall, he's touring and that just, and we knew that coming into it and that's just the reality we still want those guys to be kind of our main guys. And it's still like the band, you know what I mean? It's still the band, but I think it, it works out like that. You know, there's, there's benefits to doing it this way. There's benefits to doing the whole band thing and there's the drawbacks. And we just realized that these are the benefits that work for us, Stephen: you know? Yeah. I'm glad you guys are talking about it because I think. When it's [00:56:00] something that people generally don't think about when they start a band, it's just like, all right, we're in, let's just have fun and make some music. And that's probably how it should be when you start, but it becomes problematic at some point, particularly the more members. So if you have six or seven members, in my opinion, you're almost forced to start having a few people that are going to take ownership, simply because it's too hard to balance that many priorities. Noah: sometimes two opinions are too many opinions and you know what I mean? But you know what I mean? Like that's what it is. Like, I mean, like, and, and there's benefits that we've talked about, like kind of iron interpreting iron where we know I think this, you think this, and you know, over the process we kind of figure something out, you know, like naming an album or something like that, things like that. But I mean, Even just having two of us, if we disagree on something that takes work to try to figure that out. And that's the balance. So it's like, even having a third opinion into that idea would be like triple the work and the effort and stuff like that. And that's just hard. Maygen: And I could probably get them to take my side on most things. So then it might, they're just afraid of [00:57:00] Megan person because they're just Noah: afraid. No. Stephen: But I can think of, I mean, a classic example is, Blue Ox wants us to play and somebody's got a birthday or whatever and plans. for them, they say, I can't make that. But for the next person that said, well, I skipped my birthday on the last big opportunity to do that. Why aren't you doing it for you for this one? And that stuff comes up. all the time. And so when there's fewer people that are ultimately taking charge of those things, I mean, in your case, there's still two, you still have to come to an agreement between two, but then the rest of it's then, okay, everyone else gets to have more flexibility and we will find substitutes. And that can be really, really good for longevity in a band. Otherwise, there's just, yeah, a lot of drama when it comes down to that stuff. Now, bands have made it work. There are three pieces and four pieces that stay together with all equal voting and all of that. But I think, you know, the more people that have a [00:58:00] say, the more constant conversation and constant balance that that's going to Yeah. to make that work. I Noah: mean, I think that's great. Yeah. When you can have a band that's four or five piece and they all know their roles and they all can do things and they tend to agree on things. That's awesome. I just, that seems like a. quite the mountain to climb to like try to find that balance. So I'm happy with what Stephen: it's okay when you realize that, okay, yeah, there's one or there's two people that are leading this and are going to do most of the work and take on all the risk that comes with that. it's okay then to sometimes they'll drive. So there's that. They will make them drive. Yeah. Sometimes. Maygen: Yeah, Usually we try to offer the carpool situation, but yes, but if we're in Noah: the mountains or something like that, we might be like, you can drive this time. Yeah. Stephen: Anything else you guys want to add to that conversation when it comes to, balancing that dynamic between the band, between band time and family time? Is it just basically keeping communication as open as possible and Noah: Yeah. be okay with failing, be [00:59:00] okay with adapting and if this was the way it was six months ago, it might not be that way. And it's just, you have to be open to change and I think being open to what will this be now is kind of the idea. Maygen: And I'm, I'm extremely grateful to like, like have a great spouse that supports what we're doing. I can only imagine how difficult it might be for some people that, you know, don't have a supportive, partner because you need that as well to be able to make, make it all work and everyone feel seen and heard and, feel like they're getting enough time, you know, with you. So yeah. Uh, Thank you so much for being here. Both of you, it's been great. Appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge and insight on all of this. one thing I've been asking all guests at the end of each show is if there is a secret that you want to pass along to the scene, particularly something that, you know, it could be reflecting on this conversation, or it could be something that you [01:00:00] would your younger self, would have wanted to know 10, 15 years ago. Stephen: But is there a secret you'd like to pass along to the scene? Maygen: I would say, I mean, we've already talked about it, so I guess it's not, Not a secret, but something that I didn't know, when I was first starting out would be just how much you have to work on the back end to achieve the things that people actually see you doing. There's so much behind the scenes work and consistent follow ups and care and attentiveness that goes into, you know, what other people see in the end. Noah: I would say that if you are playing outdoors, you should take your shoes off. 'cause it feels so much better to play a live show without shoes. True. We're a barefoot band for sure. Just take your shoes off, be free. Do it and then you'll be Stephen: changed forever. yes, You'll keep doing it. That's great. That's a new tip too. There you go.well, thank you so much. If people want to reach out, follow the band, catch a show, listen to some music, where would you like to [01:01:00] send them? Maygen: Honestly, I, I want to say our website, but we're so much more, you know, updated on Facebook and Instagram, and you can get to our website from there too, but it's Megan and the birdwatcher, M A Y, I was born in May. yeah, we're pretty active on there. So reach out and say, hi, ask us questions if you want, you know, also that we know everything at all, Noah: also on all the streaming platforms. So whichever one you want to do, I guess, whatever one who doesn't want Stephen: to pay us. Well, I think that's it for today for everybody listening or watching. Thank you so much for tuning in. If this was your first time, I hope it was helpful. if you did find it helpful, share it with somebody else that you think could benefit from this. If you've got ideas or feedback that you want to leave me, my contact info will also be in the show notes as well as Megan and the bird watchers. Yeah. Feel free to reach out. Let me know what you liked. You didn't like, if you've got other ideas for episodes, and of course, like subscribe, all that good stuff. Thanks for listening. And until next time. [01:02:00]