Ep. 38: Give Your Guitars Some Love with Overman Guitars

[00:00:00] Stephen: Welcome to secrets from the scene. My name is Stephen Helvig and I'm your host today. I'm joined by Wyatt Overman of Overman guitars in St. Paul, Minnesota. And I'm really excited to have him here and to talk about his business. Wyatt hails from Northern Minnesota. He grew up building forts and playing in the woods, fishing, and of course, listening to the radio. As one expects, the music bug follows, and the passion and obsession entails, and bands and touring follow, and that sort of thing. We'll let [00:01:00] him get into his own story here shortly. Eventually Wyatt decided to combine his love for music and his love for woodworking and enrolled in a guitar building program in Red Wing, Minnesota. After that, he started cutting his teeth in the Twin Cities first at Groove City as the repair tech. And then as the apprentice to Ted Vig of Vig Wyatt opened his own place in 2020 and You know, one week before COVID hit, of course, but has been servicing guitars and making musicians very happy for the last four years. I'm excited to learn all about proper guitar maintenance, what a good guitar setup should look like and what we can do at home to. Make our instruments last as long as possible. If you are a guitarist, I think this episode is going to be great for just general tips and theory on how to best maintain your instrument, but we're going to get into even more beyond that, like some small business stuff. And yeah, I'm just excited to see where the conversation [00:02:00] goes. Please welcome Wyatt Overman. Wyatt: Hey, thank you so much for having me. Stephen: Appreciate you making the time. Wyatt: Absolutely. Yeah. Stephen: at a show and we just, you know, exchanged information quick and reached out. But I, you know, from his card, I looked up the website and I was really impressed. I think that the, you know, what you've got set up for the business looks really, really nice. Um,I love the story. I love the ethos of the business. I'm excited to sort of talk to you about those things specifically. but why don't we begin with just Talking about you a little bit and your, your background and the things that led you to wanting to start your own business. Wyatt: So.like you were saying, I grew up in a very small town. Stephen: What was the name of the town? Wyatt: it's called North Home. Stephen: North home. Wyatt: But it's only, there's only one H. So it's North O M E. It's like North Home, I guess. It's, it's funny. Stephen: Yeah. It feels very old that Wyatt: Yes, it is. Like a really old logging community up there. but yeah, my [00:03:00] family were from Chicago originally. Like that area. And, uh, My parents decided to move up there when I was a baby and there was a tiny like little resort on a small lake and it needed a lot of work and they started there. So we had this little resort on a lake, just very picturesque, beautiful place. and I remember we had a wood stove like in our house and it was just really charming. But being up there, you spend so much time outside and in nature and there's much to do. That's sort of like the first time I remember like connecting with anything. Like I felt at home outside and like in the woods and things like that. And particularly with the sounds of everything. So it was like, you know, in the fall when the wind changes and the air changes and you can sort of smell it, there's those sounds of like the trees and the leaves and all of that. And so I think that kind of made me aware of music and sound like in a different way. from there, I just remember like whenever people would come to [00:04:00] the resort and a lot of people would pull in with like their car radios on and stuff. And I would, I would just be hearing music that I didn't really know because we only had a couple of radio stations up there and that, I don't know, it just took over. Like it was like music. I just was obsessed with music all the time. Like, who was that artist? What was that song? And being up there, you're so isolated, that it was hard to find new music, and that sort of started, like, my whole thing, and my whole obsession with music. Stephen: Yeah. And so Bemidji is the closest city to like get provisions for music wise at Wyatt: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it's about, uh, 45 minutes away. That's where the nearest hospital is too. So I always had that in the back of my mind as a kid. I was like, don't get hurt out here because you have a long trip. but yeah, we had one music store, over beaks and it was right on the lake in Bemidji. they had, they carried, I'm trying to remember Samick and Ibanez stuff and maybe [00:05:00] Washburn for acoustics, but yeah, it was, know, to get my, my parents to like go in there with me or like drop me off, I'd have to be like, come on, can we go in there? Can I just like look at some stuff? And so it was nice to have a place though, to like actually see a guitar and try it out. Stephen: Yeah. It's interesting. That story in a lot of ways parallels my own. So I grew up Southern Minnesota, very close to the border of Iowa. not in the woods in the Plains, right? So other side, but very, very small town. I grew up on a farm, so, you know, rural, the closest city where I could get music was Mankato, which was about 50 minutes away. And it was kind of the same thing of like, yeah, a lot of time outside, and very few radio stations. And so you would kinda, you know, you'd maybe hear it from a friend or like your friend's older brother or something like that, where you could, Start getting hints of the wider, like, Oh, that's interesting. And, but it was like very, a very [00:06:00] special experience when you could find something new and that doesn't exist today anymore, which is really interesting. Wyatt: absolutely. Yeah, I remember, um, The same, similar experience. We would, Like on Saturday nights, we had, We just had like an old TV antenna. I think we got channel nine, which was PBS. And on Saturday nights it would be Austin city limits. And so my mom would set up a camera in the corner of the living room and we would dance for my grandma in Chicago. And so she would always say like, grandma's watching. And we would listen to these new bands though. And it was every Saturday. And I just remember that being like, what is this? Like this weekend is bluegrass. And the next weekend it was like rock. Can. But that was kind of my first exposure to There's a lot of different stuff out there. I don't know what I'm hearing. I like that it moves me like that kind of stuff But it was fun Stephen: Yeah. So Were you in Northam until you enrolled in this guitar program at Red Wing, or did [00:07:00] you eventually make your way down to the Twin Wyatt: Yeah, I bounced around so I did let's see in 2006 It was after I graduated high school. we moved to St. Paul. And it was like the band I was in at the time. And we all got a house. And I only lasted around six months. And I was trying to decide if I wanted to go to school down here.at the time I was, I don't think I had a car at the time. We were sharing like a band vehicle. And I was walking to Caribou. I was a barista there. I lasted about six months, and then I moved back, but I moved to Bemidji this time. And then I was there for another year, and then I moved back to St. Paul. And I moved within like, it was like six blocks from my original place. And I stayed for another year. And then I moved to like Rockford, Illinois, and I had friends there that I had met from touring and I lived with them. And I went to college down there for a year. And that was sort of just to see, I mean, the band I was in, we had, you [00:08:00] know, kind of all gone our separate ways. And, um, I just wanted to live like around people that were still playing a lot. And my roommate at the time, like he was recording people and there was a studio in Rockford and stuff. Yeah. And after that, I moved back and I've been here ever since. So I think that was, I think I moved back in 2011. Like summer of 2011. So I've been down here since then, but. Stephen: Sure. When did you start playing guitar? Wyatt: Ooh, I think I was 12 or 13? Yeah. So I have um,Sort of like the pivotal thing that happened to me is I, When I was around 6 years old, I started to get like a pain in my left hip. basically it's, it's called leg calves perthes disease. And it's where the cartilage stops growing in one of your sockets. to try to remedy it, they can usually catch it before like the age of five or something and it can be cured, but they didn't catch mine until later. And, um, to remedy that, I had to wear like leg braces on the outside of my pants that it they spread your legs so that the cartilage can maybe [00:09:00] Grow Stephen: Interesting. and Wyatt: that didn't work But what it did is, you know I wasn't able to play sports like I wasn't able to do the other things that my friends were doing and so like I spent A lot of time outside and at home and through that I think I was watching I'm not sure what the dates were, but I remember I had one surgery, like one corrective surgery where they went in and they scraped out all the old bone and stuff. And I was in a wheelchair for, I think it was around six months or something. But during that time, we got the direct TV package, which if you remember in the nineties, if you got the direct TV package, it was like first five minutes of any movie you could watch for free, and then you had to commit. but I think it was the wedding singer. Stephen: Okay. Wyatt: there's a scene where Robbie is freaking out, Adam Sander's character, and he's singing love stinks. And behind him, there's a guy playing like a sunburst Les Paul custom. And he kicks into that first chord progression. And I remember just sitting there and being like, [00:10:00] Like, that's really cool. Like, I want to do that. Like, what does that sound? And then that was it. I, I mean, I asked my parents, I'm like, Do we have any money? Like, is there any way I can get a guitar? Like, I need to start playing. And then from there it was Blink 182, like really got me hooked. And so, yeah, I think I was around 13, but it was wonderful. And that's when I started. So it's been around at least 23, 24 years. I don't play like I've been playing for 24 years, but I've been playing for 24 Stephen: Sure. Wyatt: it's crazy. Stephen: So you, at some point along this journey, bouncing around, moving different places, decide, let's try to build some guitars. How did that go? How long was that program and what was it like? Wyatt: the program is a year. And you have an option to go back for the second year. So in the first year, they focus on sort of just like the history of the guitar. you know, you learn everything from just what everything is called, [00:11:00] like even just, you know, is it a tuning machine? Is it a tuner? Like that sort of thing. That's sort of the, the intro to the class. And then from there it's intro to tools. And they're really strict about like what sort of tools you bring to the class. Like you have to have a certain list and it has to be certain brands. and then they just teach you how to use all of that stuff. And then after that, like once you're through hand tools, like chisels, things like that, they bring you to the woodshop side and then it's band saws and joiners and planers and learning how to use all that stuff. And then you begin to design your acoustic. So your, your senior project is essentially an acoustic. with the option to build an electric if there's time. So there's like within that year at the very end, it's always like right down to the wire. I think with our class we had more people than they had anticipated and they, they split us into two groups. And so they were telling us, you know, we're not sure if you'll get to the finishing portion, you'll have a guitar, but we don't know like if you'll be able to finish it.[00:12:00] With actual like spray and in lacquer and stuff. and so that I mean it was just life changing for me Honestly, like at the time With school, I always wanted to do something with like film or like film scoring, like something with music, but I've always loved like photography and film. I just, I never knew what I wanted to do. And I was just kind of chipping away at a bachelor's degree, which I never got. And. I just was working at Apple. and I remember something about like a guitar building school in the South. I looked it up and there was a year long wait list at the time. I just signed up and I'm like, you're going to do it next fall and you're going to commute. I lived in Northeast at the time. And I was like, you're not moving there. You're going to commute, you're going to keep your job. And I kind of just jumped. But I think it, it excited me because growing up in the woods and stuff, like I carved all the time. Like I was just a little outdoor kid, just constantly carving building forts to like wood and woodworking was something I was always interested in. And so, yeah, it made sense. Stephen: [00:13:00] Yeah. What was the name of the program in case anybody wants to look it up? Wyatt: Yeah. So it's through Southeast tech, and the program is guitar building and repair. I'm not sure if it's still the same name, Stephen: Sure. That would get them started Wyatt: yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the, the second year they focus more on building an arch top and CNC machining. So like bringing in robotics and stuff to like help with the build process. Stephen: Okay, Wyatt: I was really interested in that as well. But, right after I graduated, I had a friend working at crew city and Nick and Nick Costa like got me in there and he's like, we need someone to. Change strings and like kind of do some basic setup stuff. So I didn't go back for the second year, but Stephen: And so that's, that's, takes us right into your first step at Groove City. So tell us about Groove City and what you did there. Wyatt: yeah, so groove was I loved like the The vibe of the shop. a lot of cool brands like it was a little more boutique it was small, but it was cozy And when I got there, they already had a main [00:14:00] luthier, um, who was driving down from, I think St. Joseph, to do, like, their main repairs. And I was mainly in charge of just store stock. So, like, anything on the wall that needed tweaking. And it was just my first time, you know, having to do something for someone else. Because, with repairs, it's, you YouTube and everything, , but then there's like this extra level of like stress or like pressure when you're doing it for someone else. And so that's where I really learned like, okay, you're on the spot. Someone's coming to buy this Strat and they want it set up with, you know, whatever. And it was a lot of that for about a year. Stephen: And then while you were working there, were you just looking to try to basically become an apprentice to a luthier? Wyatt: I really wanted to work with someone who had been doing it for a long time. And then the reason for that, it, it wasn't like I never had a goal to open up a shop. Like I never wanted, like, I kind of fell into what [00:15:00] I'm doing. I'm extremely grateful for where I'm at, but my goal was to like work with people who had done a lot of repairing and just sort of learn that whole world. And then take knowledge from that and apply it to building something. So like sort of take what is wrong with like this brand specifically, or this model, like, what are like the little things that could be tweaked to make it better? And then if you were to build your own, you know, just establish something a little bit better than like what's currently being marketed or something like Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So how did you end up at Vig? Wyatt: so I had Ted and Angie, wonderful people, great shop. I had been buying like parts and stuff from them for like my home tinkering projects and things like that. And Ted was always like super friendly and like really knowledgeable and would walk you through how to do things like if you were in there just asking about something. And. I had met with Ted about working for [00:16:00] them because I was kind of looking for a way out and I could tell that our, the current shop I was at, we were losing people and the turnover was high and just that sort of thing. And it wasn't really fitting with like what I wanted or who I wanted to be around. And so, yeah, I got to work with Ted, which was amazing. Stephen: Yeah. at what point then did you decide I should do this on my own? Wyatt: let's see. I was at Viggs for, I want to say like a year and a half or so, and I had a great experience there and I still was just like, I really want to build like so bad, but the issue with building is in school, they told us the fast track to poverty is building guitars and there's no resale value if people don't know your name or like who you are, it's really hard to sell something that you've put a lot of time and money into. And try to make a living off of it. But when I was there, I just kept still, like I was just daydreaming. Like, how can I build anything? and so what actually happened is I got really burnt out on [00:17:00] the repair scene. And I just wanted to kind of take a break, not from repairs entirely, but I was like, I, this pace is a little too fast for me right now. I really need to think of, you know, do I want to be doing this full time? And so I went back to. Sort of like my corporate experience of things. And I have like a little bit of a background in product photography and stuff like that. And so I went back to a full time cubicle editing photos. and I would get texts from people just being like, Hey, are you got this new thing? I need it set up. Like, are you doing anything? And I had a small bench at home in our apartment and I was just like, yeah, sure. And then that kind of started to take over. And then we had like guitar cases everywhere. And I was like, maybe I feel kind of weird, like having people's instruments, like in my house and strangers are coming into my house. I should look for like a small space to just do this. the whole time I'm [00:18:00] still dreaming about building, but it's that sort of took over. Stephen: So then you, you start looking for space, you find something at the Vandalia towers, right? And open the shop how has that journey been for the last four years? Like where did it start? Where is it now? Wyatt: it started really small with sort of just texts and Instagram messages. I didn't have a website. I didn't have, you know, business cards at that time or anything. like when I started on my own, it was still kind of just friends. Like just friends that were in bands locally and just being like, Hey, I can, I can set that up for you. I can fix something. and then when I moved into that space, it was really secluded from the rest of the building and it was very hard to find. And so I was trying to figure out a way, like, how can I get people to, to find me online or anything? And then the website came and I started to toy with this idea of appointments I've always liked that idea [00:19:00] because my experience before I started repairing guitars, when I would bring a guitar somewhere, it was very, like, rushed and noisy. And when you pick up your guitar, it's like, yeah, here you go. I don't know what they did to it. They're not here for another week. Like call back if you have any issues like that kind of thing. And I was like, why can't this be, why can't this be more personal? Like, why can't it be more one on one when you pick it up, you're one on one with the person that fixed it. And you have a certain amount of time and they walk you through everything they did and why. And then if you need to make any adjustments, you do it on the spot while they're still there. Like, don't inconvenience them with like a trip back in a few days or a couple weeks or something.so then the appointment system kind of took over. there was a little bit of trial and error with like certain websites that host that, but when I was in that small space, that's when I'm like, okay, we're going to do appointments. And like, I'll send people directions, like here's the building, here's a photo with circled where to park. I'll meet you right here in the lobby. We'll [00:20:00] bring you up. And that's kind of how I got that going. Stephen: How has the business changed in the last four years? Wyatt: We've been growing a lot which has been great In the last year specifically, we're getting more clients that are, you know, they found us online, like just through Google. It's less word of mouth or referral, and it's more just like people finding us, which has been really exciting. we still do appointment only, that's kind of the main thing. but we still, I mean, we haven't really Jumped into advertising or anything like that yet. I think it feels strange because I feel like I've been I mean I I graduated 10 years ago with it And so I feel like i've been doing it a long time But as far as being on my own with this business You know, it's only been four years but umYeah, definitely More just people stumbling onto us just finding us Stephen: I do think, like I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, I do think the, the website's really nice and put together well, did you do that [00:21:00] on your own? Yeah. Stephen: I can tell that you have a background in photography and, you know, it looks nice. It's, it's done well. So I'm sure that's helping. I'm really happy to hear that. I mean, as another small business owner, you know, I'm, I'm always curious about what everybody else's experience is like, because it's, it's certainly not easy. It takes a ton of time and a lot of work. Um,but it's, it's worth it. It's fun. And I'm glad that, that your shop is doing well. Let's pivot over to actually talking about some maintenance and repairs and that sort of thing. So first, why don't you pitch a little bit? I mean, I feel like it's for most listeners, it's probably pretty obvious what you do, but why don't you actually like explicitly talk about your shop and your services, what you offer, who it's for, Wyatt: Yeah, so we are a full service repair shop Essentially anything that can be done Wyatt: for guitars. Yep Guitars, basses, banjos, ukuleles, just none of the stringed [00:22:00] orchestral stuff. but yeah, essentially anything that can be done to those instruments we handle. I don't really like explicitly say this, but in my head there's the three M's. And for me, it's maintenance, mods. And then there's a little bit of mania in there. It's like, those are the three categories in my head. So for maintenance, it's anything from, your basic setup, which is essentially an oil change for your instrument. for mods, it's like pickup swaps, bridge swaps, like new nuts, that kind of stuff. And then like for me, the mania side is like when someone wants to turn like a canoe into a speedboat type thing. which, Those can be really fun projects. Like, don't get me wrong. I love those. especially if they're sentimental, like sentimental projects, always top of the list for me, you know, we'll do rebuilds of things where we're routing for a completely different bridge that wasn't stock, or a schematic for the electronics that doesn't exist, like that sort of thing. Stephen: [00:23:00] Yeah. Wyatt: So those three categories are kind of like the everyday thing that we deal with. Yeah. Stephen: Let's talk about setups. I think a lot of guitarists know that like, yeah, when stuff is not working, that's when I need to go get a setup or like, I have a major problem or I just got out of my recording session and somebody told me I need to get this thing set up.But they don't actually know really what it means. maybe parts of it, but not really the full idea.so break it down a little bit of like, what is a typical setup look like? Cause obviously there's, there's probably some differences depending on how far gone or how long it's been since that instruments had some, TLC. So, break down what a setup is. And. How often somebody should be thinking about this? Wyatt: Okay, so for setups It starts with like a diagnostic. So like I'll look at the guitar You kind of just see if anything jumps out at me is like, Whoa, that's not [00:24:00] right. Or that doesn't look right. and what that would be is the action is either super low and by action, the string height, like where the strings rest, Wyatt: it's either super low or super high. Those are like the, the first things I notice, from there, you're going to look at the neck, is it like this, do you have up bow or is it back bowed? You'll look at that. You'll look at the condition of the frets. Like, is there a lot of fret wear? you'll look at the bridge itself. Like, is everything really rusty? Do things look like, you know, working properly? Like, things like that. And in a setup, it starts with diagnostics and then a total cleaning of everything. So cleaning the electronics, cleaning the fingerboard, lubricating the fingerboard, polishing the frets.changing the strings and then, you know, you're going to adjust the action, the string height. You're going to adjust the nut slot height, the neck itself, and then intonation. [00:25:00] So it's, it's kind of like those categories, those steps. But yeah, if somebody brought something in and they were like, I'm not sure, does it need anything? I think just to look at your instrument at home or wherever you're at and like, if your frets look like corroded or like dirty or your strings are rusty or it's Really hard to play or it's too easy to play and everything's buzzy because it's too low. Just look out for those things and also intonation like pay attention to like when you're past the 12th fret If things sound wonky and you're like, why does that sound out of tune but in first position i'm in tune something's up You know generally you could get it done Every time the weather changes. So like fall and spring, that's a good time. a lot of our clients, it's like once a year, it just depends. It also, I'm sure we'll, we'll tie into this, but it depends on like the environment that the instrument lives in. And if it's on the road a lot, if it's like, Stephen: [00:26:00] How often it's used. Wyatt: hmm, absolutely. Stephen: Yeah, generally the big warning signs where somebody goes, I need to do something about this is some sort of noise, whether that's coming from the electronics, maybe there's a hum or a problem or a knob stops working or, you know, something you don't know what's going on, or it's Noise from the instrument itself, meaning just buzzing, you know, obviously on an acoustic, or, but even on electric too, if you just have a lot of buzzing frets, that's a sign that something's gotten off too far and then intonation of course. And that's a lot of what I see where people feel like they're getting their instrument is fine. And then we go to record and the intonation is not good enough for recording. and. We end up having to tune to every position that they're playing in Wyatt: Oh yeah. Stephen: to get around it. and you know, that's fine. Sometimes you do that even if the instrument's pretty good, you know, it's hard to have perfect intonation. so those are usually the big red flags of when you need to do this, but. [00:27:00] keeping up with it, whether it's twice a year or once a year will help make your instrument just last longer. I'm sure. Um,play better throughout the whole thing. There's obviously the, the issue of the action, the string height, as you said, I think particularly when you're getting started out and you're trying to learn an instrument, it can be really helpful to make sure that you have a nice setup because it's easier to play. you know, we tend to keep our action. a little bit on the higher side. You know, it's, it's not high, but it's, we, we want to avoid any sort of buzz for, for a recording studio. So generally we will, we'll stay, you know, conservative in that regard. But for somebody that's learning. Having a lower action can really make it feel better to play and encourage you to keep going and not get discouraged with a high, really, if you've ever picked up one of those 100 acoustic guitars, and that's what you're trying to learn on, it's hard. Wyatt: It's hard. Absolutely. And that's, [00:28:00] um, something that we, we encounter every day is, you know, people will be like, well, I just bought it. Like, why does it need to set up? And from the factory, a lot of things are set up high. a lot of the nut slots aren't cut. You know, they're just like left high. They might be channeled a little bit. Mm hmm. But they're left high and it's just sort of this thing of like, here you go. But once you dial them in, you know, especially for the preferred string gauge, or like, if it's a beginner, you want to go light, you know, if it's someone that really heavy handed, you know, you can go heavier, but I think that most of them, if they're new, they still need that little bit of a setup just to get them ready. Stephen: So let's talk about what people can do on their own to extend the playability of their instrument in between setups. Wyatt: Yeah, so what I recommend, for changing strings, you kind of want to, you know, grab yourself some lemon oil. there's a couple other lubricants on the market that work really well, but cleaning your [00:29:00] fingerboard is a big one. Okay? Um, especially if it's rosewood or ebony. Um,if it's maple and it's covered in lacquer, it's not as important. But with the rosewood boards and. just cleaning it when you change your strings. That would, that will help a lot because if your frets get really corroded and rusty and kind of gunked up, your intonation is going to be off. Like your note, it's just not going to sound right. and that's relatively affordable. I think a thing of lemon oil will last you at least a year and it's pretty cheap. That's something I recommend. also just like string life. You know, changing your strings when you notice they're getting corroded, or if you're using coated strings, you'll notice like they kind of start to unwind a little and there's a, the coating does, and there's like these little fibers that stick up. but if your strings are turning green, especially on like your treble strings, if you run your finger under them and they feel like there's friction, there's like a something on there, changing your strings is huge. Stephen: they collect [00:30:00] so much oil from your Yep. that just builds up and the more gunk that's on those strings and you can clean your strings a little bit as you go like just grab a rag and literally scrub them. We do that from time to time. I don't like the sound of new strings on acoustics Wyatt: It's very common, yeah. Stephen: and so I tend to leave mine pretty worn. I just clean them a Wyatt: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's an excellent option. I would say that's important. Like, just cleaning your board. Like, paying attention to the instrument. If you notice it's really, really dirty and gross around your pots. Or like, you spilt something on your guitar. Like, listening for, yeah, clean it off. Like, it'll be, it'll be better. It'll, uh, save you some Stephen: I know there's some rock and rollers out there that really want to have that beat up guitar, and that's fine. But, you know, make sure it's still playable. Yes. Yeah. And I think for The other thing you can do, just for basic maintenance, is check your humidity levels. Especially with your acoustics. [00:31:00] area where I'm fully guilty. I've never done Wyatt: people are. Stephen: to care about it.I still don't to this day and I just pay the price for it essentially. So I think it's partially, I want to dive into this because I think I'm not, like you said, most people are, I don't think I'm, particularly,What's the word I'm looking for like Negligent that's enough. I don't I don't think I'm particularly negligent in that regard in comparison to most guitarists It's more that I just don't really fully understand what I was supposed to do and but I know enough that I feel like if I'm not doing it right, I could make things worse Wyatt: Okay, Stephen: when it comes to then like over humidifying something or starting to humidify it, but then not doing it consistently so that there's more swings in humidity levels. So, this section of the conversation I'm interested Wyatt: Yeah, yeah, in terms of Stephen: I need to learn this quite a bit. [00:32:00] [00:33:00] [00:34:00] first walk through why humidity is important and then what are the first steps you should start doing as a guitar Wyatt: Yeah, so, it's important for the wood, because the wood never stops. Expanding and contracting. And it is always taking in moisture or losing moisture. and so with like an acoustic guitar, you know, the, the interior of it. It's raw wood. Like some people will finish the interior of the back bracing, but it's, it's breathing essentially, like it's taking in the air. And if it gets too dry, the tension from the strings and on the top and everything, it can just lead to like a myriad of problems, like top cracks, which will oftentimes lead to bridge lift or like the bridge pulling Stephen: I know all about Wyatt: Yes, that's very common. And it's just, [00:35:00] yeah, I mean it can start to collapse on itself, you know, you'll get side cracks, back cracks, the whole thing. That being said, it's a strange thing because it's one of those where it's like, it isn't broken until it is. Like a lot of people never humidify. Ever. And they'll bring in a Gibson from, you know, the 50s or 60s and it's been in a closet and there's not a single crack on it, it's never been repaired. And that's amazing. Most of the time though, like something will happen eventually. And if you can try to prevent it in any way, it will save you headaches and money and time. but yeah, like the first thing I like to do, I just tell people like, get a hygrometer. So that just measures the humidity in the room. They're pretty affordable. a lot of places are, um, a lot of brands will sell them for your case even.but I usually get, there's like a two pack online and I think it's around 15 and it, they're magnetic. And so anything in the room that's metal, like a mic stand or anything, you could just leave it by where you [00:36:00] keep your guitars. it. Ideally, you'd want to be between like 30 percent humidity and like 45. that's where we try to keep the shop. You can go higher, It's you know, you don't want to go too high. You don't want it to be like condensating on things or like yeah And then it gets gross Stephen: Yeah. Wyatt: mean, I've had people who consistently are at like 20 percent humidity to 25 and they're fine It's just something somewhat stable will help the instrument And then that being said like that opens up, What sort of person you are as far as like, can you remember to change your humidifier? Can you remember to soak that sponge? And so what I recommend for like I'll ask people based on like, you know, just sort of personality type things Do you want to set it and forget it? Or are you someone that is gonna remember every day to check that sponge? Stephen: So what options do you have? Wyatt: So for acoustics, they have like the sound hole, humidifiers [00:37:00] and there's the sponge option, which I'm probably going to catch some flack for this, but the luthier community will say distilled water only because otherwise it'll grow mold and stuff. I've run a few experiments on this for months at a time with sponges and jars. We're doing one currently and we're going to film it. I've never had mold grow on a sponge or inside an acoustic. I know that it is possible, but worst case scenario, any water you can find that is. You know, not outside in a pond or something. yes, yes. so you want to use one of those and just like, if it's dry and crusty, you just get it damp and wring it out, not soaking because if it drips down into that can cause issues. I love those. those are very affordable and you can even just buy sponges, put them in a Ziploc bag, poke a bunch of holes. And that's something Wyatt: but yeah, if you're not the kind of person that can remember the sponges and like, checking that, I recommend the, um, Soundhole [00:38:00] Humidipacks. Boveda makes them and they're great. they partnered with Tadereo and they also make them. They can last like, Three to six months, maybe longer, maybe a little less depending on how dry or how humid. But those are great because you can just put them in there, put them in your case and you can forget about it. And then you can buy like the refill packs as well. Stephen: Got it. Wyatt: But I think that's huge mean, with your acoustics, it varies a lot. Like I said earlier, there's the some people who it lives in a closet and it's somehow fine. But You just want to take care of them because acoustic repairs are more expensive and they take more time to do them right and you know you just want to stay ahead of it and I feel like the just humidifying whether that's in your case so that kind of brings up another point if you're in like a setting where you have a humidifier built into the central air or whatever usually is fine. That's great. if you're storing your instruments like in a basement and it's [00:39:00] super humid in the summer, you might actually want like a dehumidifier down there. But again, with the hygrometer, you can see where you're at, at that percentage. if you're storing your guitars on the wall next to a radiator in a drafty window, and it's 10 below outside, it's a recipe for disaster because it's really dry and drafty, and then you have that heat. Right there as well. it out, yep. So it's sort of just like, start with a hygrometer, see where you're at, and then go from there. Stephen: the big concept is to try to avoid crazy swings where something is very, very humid and then very, very dry. obviously instruments are meant to be used. So they're, you know, you're going to be taking them, traveling with them, in situations where maybe you won't be able to keep the ideal humidity at all times. Like you don't, they, you They are resilient to some extent, you know, so don't get crazy about this, but I think it's when they're going to sit for a [00:40:00] while or like where their, where home base is. If there is such a place for you where they're going to be stored most of the time outside of being used, try to control that area and you'll be just fine. Wyatt: Yep. And you just touched on something that I I'm very adamant about it's like not getting too far into the weeds on anything guitar related like and that's something where you can start here just be aware of Your setting is it super dry. Are you like getting nosebleeds like in your You know in your studio every day or something and yeah, just be aware Stephen: Okay. Here's a question that I've heard different answers on, but the two tailors that are here never really been humidified. mostly stored in this room. There are swings. It stays fairly, like in the summers we do run a dehumidifier to keep that down, but in the winters we don't run a humidifier and it is, it does get cold. It gets dry. never done any humidity control really for them. [00:41:00] And we've just done the maintenance on the back end. at this point, you know, they're, they're old. Is it worth starting now? Or does, you know, once a guitar started, gets used to not being humidified? Like, does that change Wyatt: Yes, and no like I think it could But I would say like as long as you don't do anything extreme like if you're taking something that Has been living. It's a certain way for like 20 years and you throw it in a 50 humidity room I don't know you can yeah, it could be like kind of a lot like ease into it a little but I think for longevity Sort of introducing a little bit of that moisture, you know, like it would be a good idea But tailors are built like they're built like tanks. Stephen: Okay. Well, they've survived all the neglect over the last many years. So, but they've needed repairs. There's been some cracks, the bridges lifted. There's been things like that. Then it's like, yeah, you can, we keep an eye on them. And luckily I have a client that, does some luthier work for us that, you know, he's in about [00:42:00] once a year. All right. Take this one with me and fix it up again. Yeah. But that's good to know though that perhaps because it's, it's been on my mind of like, well, maybe this winter I'll start doing some humidity control, Wyatt: maybe it's time. Stephen: but I've, I've heard that before of like, eh, it might be like, you know, now that they're just used to it, just leave them. Wyatt: Yeah, like sometimes they're seasoned. They're just, yeah, they're just like, that's them. Sounds like it can still be kind of, it depends, but you'd want to be conservative either way. Yeah. I'd rather just play on the safe side just in case. Stephen: when it comes to packs or the sponge, is there anything that you can do wrong outside of just having them too wet where they're dripping? Wyatt: yeah, no, you're probably fine. I mean, I've had some people who have put sponges inside the guitar like dropped it into the sound hole and they've left it like too wet and it's loose and braces and things like that, but Stephen: I guess before we move on, I was just about to jump on. Is there anything else that [00:43:00] you want to talk about when it comes to just general maintenance for people at home? talked about cleaning, we talked about humidifying, Wyatt: Yeah, I would say I would say like no job is too small Like don't be intimidated. I know that A lot of guitar shops, that I've just been to around the country and stuff, they can be intimidating to go to, especially if, like, you might not know the terminology or what is actually going on and, like, you don't want to be talked down to. It's the same with, you know, going to a mechanic, and if you don't know anything about cars, it's kind of like I don't know. I don't know what that thing is. It's, you know, that's my experience with that sort of thing. so just say like there's no job is too small. Like, don't be intimidated. If you have questions, don't be afraid to ask them. but yeah, like if you feel like something is off with your instrument or you just want a second opinion, absolutely. You know, like, come on in, we'll talk to you. Like it's Stephen: Yeah. Wyatt: specifically like wanting people, like wanting to educate people and help people. Stephen: [00:44:00] And setups don't have to be crazy expensive. you know, obviously if you've got loose braces and your bridge is lifting off your acoustic and things like that, like you're going to have to spend some money, but if you just feel like, eh, this doesn't play that well. And it, you know, it's kind of out of tune sometimes. And there's some problems like that. And you are thinking like, well, maybe I can fix this myself. I would say like, maybe there is a lot of information on YouTube and that sort of thing, but. Unless you're prepared to, like, fully understand how all of these things work together, don't start wrenching on things and changing things on your own because you're, you're probably going to make it worse. If you, if you if you're interested in that, it is a learnable skill. You can do things. And a lot of, players are comfortable with that and will, gladly make some adjustments on their own instruments. If that's you, great, but spend the time to learn because a lot of the things that you can adjust on, say, an electric guitar are interwoven and you might think, well, it's just a matter of adjusting this little [00:45:00] height on my bridge or whatever. when in fact it's because your frets are more worn out and you need things like that. So there's just a lot of factors that go into this. So unless you're willing to really deep dive and do that stuff, take it to a place like Overman guitars and get a diagnostic. It won't cost you that much. I already know from speaking with you that you'll educate to of like, Hey, here are the little things you can do on your own next time this comes up. you'll not only learn, but then you'll have a reliable source to also lean on when, A, if you don't have time or B, if it doesn't go as planned and you make it worse. Wyatt: Absolutely. I mean I answer texts and messages and emails all day with people asking questions. And we've done like one setup class and we're planning to do Stephen: Oh, that's really cool. Wyatt: Yeah, so you'll bring of Basically it's for electric guitars and you can bring your one instrument in and then you let us know what you're bringing and then we do like from start to finish diagnosing like what is going on, future repairs it'll need, current repairs, the whole [00:46:00] process of restringing, cleaning, setting it up, and yeah, and we give you a book with all of our like our knowledge of how to do it and how we personally do it. We have our measurements written down and everything. Stephen: That's awesome. I think that's great. Next time you do one of those, let us know and we'll share it. Yeah, think there'd be a lot of interest in that from people. Wyatt: Yeah, it's really fun to teach. Like I, we really like just informing people. I should say like I couldn't do anything that I'm doing without my team. So I have Holly and Maddie and Johnny. And I really lucked out with finding such great people. And Johnny is um, he's another Luthier.amazing work and I'm so fortunate to have him on my team and he's also a great teacher. So for the classes you get both of us and we kind of bounce around the room. Yeah, so it's been really fun. Stephen: How long have you had your team side note? Wyatt: so Johnny's one year is coming up, I think in July, and then Holly has been with me for a couple of years now. Maddie, [00:47:00] I want to say it was like last August or something as well. Stephen: That's So yeah, it's been great. Yeah. Are they in every day? Do you have them like Wyatt: Johnny is usually. Yep. So, Holly is very busy with the studio that she runs and everything. Salon Sonics. Stephen: I've reached out to Holly as an, as another guest on the podcast. So hopefully we'll get her on Wyatt: Yeah, she's, she's wonderful. she's usually like a Monday, Tuesday, kind of like pop in. And, we're training luthier. She's crushing that. Johnny's usually in with me full time. And then Maddie, it sort of depends on, like how many appointments we have. Yeah. So Maddie does like the intake and the emailing and stuff like that. Stephen: Cool. Just curious. Again, my own small business owner brain, curious about that sort of stuff. Wyatt: oh absolutely Stephen: all right, let's move on to, mods. What are the most common mods you are doing? Wyatt: Who pick up swaps for sure like that is? Constant pick up swaps are huge Probably like upgrades as far as like if it comes in with a plastic [00:48:00] nut like a bone nut or Graphite not like stuff like that Tuning machines is another very common mod bridges Pick guards like anything like that. I would say for sure pickups though are the most common. Stephen: Do you find any mods that are, sort of overhyped that people do all the time that you're like, this doesn't need to happen? Wyatt: Okay, so my mindset, I'm sure I'll catch the flag for this, I like to be more simple. Like, I'm all about playing your instrument. Like, pick it up, and play it. you know, like, don't focus so much on like, this is gonna make me better, or I won't make it until I get this pedal, or like, this mod done. I love the excitement about it though, like don't get me wrong. I think it's all so much fun, but I'm more about like It's mostly in your hands And you can tell like there are certain players that can pick up any guitar in a room And they'll all sound exactly the same because it's in them like they have the you know, whatever There's some mods where, I mean, you can get [00:49:00] so far into the weeds on some mods, but for me, personally, it's like, when you start doing push pulls and like treble bleed circuits, things like that, it loses me. Like, I would never use it, and I'm not saying like I'm better than anyone or anything, it's just like, my brain, if you blindfolded me, and you handed me a guitar that had a treble bleed in it, And I A B'd it with one that didn't. I probably wouldn't be able to hear it. You can hear it, it is an obvious thing. But, for me, I'm just like, Eh, I don't know. Stephen: Yeah. Wyatt: So, there's certain electronic mods I think are a little overhyped. we get a lot of those. anything where I just feel like they're never going to use it. Where it's like, they're just doing it because they saw someone on YouTube do it and they just have to know, like, it's exciting. And we'll absolutely do it for you. Like it's fun, but a lot of the times people bring stuff back in and they're just like, yeah, I never used that thing. Like it was, it was a little chaotic. And for me, I'm all about just like plugging in and [00:50:00] you know, like, let it rip, just play. But, um, that one sticks out the most is probably like a, I don't know, trouble bleed or Stephen: Sometimes I feel like mods are also attempting to make something more versatile when perhaps, perhaps you're better off just getting another instrument for that use instead of trying to make one instrument do everything. Not always there. There can be great options, but again, it's one of those things you just, you have fun with, you got to know what you're doing. And, and,I'm definitely more of the simplistic mindset of like, cool, this instrument works. It does this thing. If I need something else, I'll get a different one. Wyatt: Right. That's exactly it. And we do have some clients where it's like, they're touring a lot or they're in like a, they're in a cover band that needs like 40 different guitar sounds in one show. So I get it. Like, well, we'll split your pickup. So you can have a strat tone on that one song or like, you know, whatever you need. Totally get it. It's just some, some of those things you can get really into the weeds. And then people are [00:51:00] asking if you have, pot values that are in between two 50 and 500, because it rolls off a little bit of the mid range. And it's just like, Stephen: No, one's going to hear Wyatt: No one in the world knows that and no one hears it just play. Stephen: Yeah. It'll be fine. No Wyatt: It'll be fine. Yeah, it'll be But it's fun to be that nerdy about things that you love. And that's, that's what that really comes from. So Stephen: all the more power to them, good. Yeah, it comes from a good place tonight I love them Yeah. what's next for Overman guitars? Wyatt: who has a great question. So I'm actually I'm never sure to be honest, like I, I never really know where it's going, which is really exciting. It's a little scary Stephen: you are doing some building, right? Wyatt: Yeah. So we've been working on like our electrics that we want to debut. We wanted to have one done for Arto world, but it didn't happen. but yeah, it's something that, you know, I've been trying to design something that I would be comfortable playing. For like the last five years and we finally settled on a [00:52:00] design and now we're working on different tiers of that design, like different materials for each one. I don't think it's anything like groundbreaking. I, I sort of feel like they really got it right with electric guitars, like Gibson and Fender, just Gretsch. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel by any means, but just sort of like, Taking what already exists and tweaking it a little bit. and so I think that that's next and I really want those to be debuting either like mid to late summer, early fall. And this year we definitely have to get them out because I've been Going crazy, and I'm at that point where it's I'm sure you've experienced this with mixing or something where you're listening to the same Yeah, you're just like listening to the same like, you know Annunciation or something of a word and you're like, I wish I would have said it differently and you're just like going over and over That's kind of where I'm at with it So we're gonna jump on those and then I think what we're going to try to start doing in June, we're going to [00:53:00] do something that we're calling family Fridays. And what we're going to do is be open on Fridays to the public. So during the week it's all appointments. And then on Fridays, it's just. Kind of wide open. we want to do something like that so that people who have never met us or have seen the shop can just come and kind of see it. And we'll do like consultations on the spot and you can drop off or pick up your instruments. we'll have products for sale, things like that. But then when the builds are done, that will give people like a day that they know that they can just come in and try things out. And we've been wanting to do something like that for a while, but it's, you know, just scheduling, figuring out the logistics of everything like that. But I think that'll be good. Stephen: That's great. Well, I know that we have more that we could talk about, but just for the sake of time and keeping this kind of succinct, I think this is a probably a pretty good wrapping up point. before we kind of get to this end spot, is there anything else? about our conversation of either [00:54:00] what Overman guitars is providing or, what people should be doing to take care of their own instruments, that any points that you feel like we missed or you want to throw in quick before we move on and wrap this up. Wyatt: I would just say if you are wanting to like tinker at home and like try something on your guitar, I would say like, don't be afraid. Like, I always tell myself at the end of the day, it's wood and glue. And that's all it really is. so like, don't be afraid to tinker with something, figure it out on your own. And if you know, you find that like you messed something up and you just need someone to tweak it back for you, we're here for that. I would also say like, don't be intimidated by a guitar shop or like an appointment only shop. we love meeting people and we try to create Like a really welcoming, warm environment. And when I started it, I wanted to do the appointment so that it was the one on one where I actually like get to know you and like who you are and like what you care about. And then from there, your repairs and your mods, it's easier for me because I can understand what you're thinking. I can like think, you know, [00:55:00] not for you, but it just, it helps. And that's what we focus on. Like we wanted to have a shop where. If you're intimidated by going to a shop where, you know, a bunch of people are just going to be like, how do you not know that? You know, or like, well, you're playing nines and that's stupid or just something like that. This is not what we're about. Like, we're about like, come on in, like, let's hang. You do have to have an appointment, but it's easy and you can make them same day. But we love talking and trying to make you feel comfortable and then developing that relationship where you have a place that you can go and people will take care of you. And it's an open line of communication. Like after you pick up, like you can still text us or call us or whatever you need and we'll help you out. Like we just wanted to make like a little family type unit. Stephen: Well, that was one of the things that I feel like I could, glean off the website of just the ethos of the company feels very, open and friendly and. intentionally helpful that you're clearly trying to make [00:56:00] things better for the people that you're servicing. Um,it's not just all about you being good at like guitar stuff, you know? And Because that that impression does come off, especially to younger players that are intimidated by everything anyways, because they don't know anything. And that's kind of where we all start to some extent. so I really appreciated that myself. and I think that, the shop looks like a great place for anybody to reach out, obviously for work, but To learn too. And the fact that you're going to do these workshops, I think that's brilliant and just more testament to that's really what you guys are about. so I, I highly encourage anybody that that needs some guitar work to check out Overman and St. Paul. you know, one thing that I ask people, and I feel like we might've covered it just now. So if that's the case, then I'm sorry. But, one thing that I ask people at the end of every episode is, as you've reflect back on your, time in the music industry. Now you have been in bands and you've toured and stuff, but now obviously focusing [00:57:00] on running a business and servicing guitars. what has your secret to the scene been? Wyatt: Oh. Kindness. Yes. For me, it's always about the hang. that's the one thing I've learned because I used to, well the most pivotal thing I guess that I've learned, I, I feel like in my 20s I was probably a total asshole and like, very arrogant, I didn't really know myself, you know, like I was just drinking a lot and stuff like that, but it's, Kindness is the most important thing to me, especially in the music industry, because if you're touring and you're meeting people at local venues, it doesn't matter like who you're meeting your impression. People remember kindness and people remember the opposite of that, you know, specifically and the opposite of kindness. will spread and people will talk and you should just be nice. Like there's no reason to be an ass all the time. And so I, I fully think it's kindness like above all. And in the industry, unfortunately, I feel like it's going towards a kinder place. Like [00:58:00] I feel like it's felt more familial and like everyone is nice, like nicer, but growing up in it, it was, you know, just egos everywhere and attitude and I'm the best sound guy or I'm the best this or I'm the best that and it's, Stephen: There's a lot of fronting and pretentiousness. You know, I think part of the trend towards being a little bit kinder is, you know, maybe one of the good side effects of social media and that everything's transparent, you know, it's harder to, lie about something or keep up impressions on something. Cause You know, you can kind of see what's really going on for people if Wyatt: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Stephen: no, obviously you can, there's still ways to manipulate that and all of that, but, there's just not much to gain there. There just really isn't, because at some point somebody is going to see through it, and I think everybody kind of knows that, life is better when, when, when you're kind internally for yourself and externally for others. So, absolutely. And that's been a reoccurring theme, throughout the podcast of a lot of people kind of coming to that same [00:59:00] conclusion, be generous, be kind, and it will be reciprocated. Wyatt: Absolutely. Stephen: I found that to be true and you have, It's great for the scene as we all, you know, try to, to live that way all the time. We all have bad days and off days too. It's fine, but you know, do your best and, You'll see it returned. Wyatt: Yes, I absolutely agree Stephen: So if people want to get in touch, they want to maybe do some work or they just want to follow online casually. How do they get ahold of you or, or where would you like to send them? Wyatt: Yeah, so, uh, let's see. Our instagram is at overman guitars. Our website is overman guitars comm our shop number is 2 1 8 2 8 8 16 67 and yeah, any of those outlets is fine like our fine Stephen: put all those links in the show notes. Just keep in mind that there aren't walk ins currently. There might be on Fridays in the summer, depending on when you are listening to this episode. So [01:00:00] plan to make an appointment, but, yeah. Anything else you want to add before we wrap this up? Wyatt: Oh, I'm sure I'll forget something. I just want to say thanks to my team. Thank you for having me. This is great. Thanks to Johnny for linking us up, Stephen: uh, and shout out to Holly. Hopefully we'll get her on here this summer. the episode, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. Please check out Overman Guitars if you are in need of a guitar setup share this episode with somebody else that, you feel like maybe needs some one on one, um, what these are or maybe needs a new place to get their guitar set up at, I know plenty of musicians that have complained to me about how terrible their experience was with their guitar set up at, some places that we won't name, but, you know, there's better options out there, more personalized, more friendly and affordable places that you can check out and support local businesses. So I definitely recommend that. if you liked this, please subscribe. Consider subscribing on YouTube [01:01:00] or hitting the like or follow button, whatever is convenient. share it with a friend. All that stuff really helps to keep the podcast going, but I appreciate you. Thank you for listening until next time.