Ep. 37: Mixing Music: Where to Start and When to Hire with Jason McGlone

Stephen: Welcome to Secrets from the Scene. My name is Stephen Helvig and I'm your host. We're back here at Helvig Productions for another episode. And today I have Jason McGlone in, which will be a really fun conversation to have. I've known of Jason and his work for a really long time and it's crazy because we've never actually met until today. So we've been already just chatting each other's ears off before this has started. So I figured we'd better get this going quickly before all the good stuff is gone. Jason is. A lot like myself in [00:01:00] that he's a producer, an engineer does mixing, mastering, tracking, all of that. He works primarily out of the hideaway studio in Minneapolis. He's got a room there. in recent years, his transition to being more mixing focused. He's also now a professor at Hamline university where he's teaching music or recording and production. I guess I'll let you talk about specifically what you're teaching. and I reached out to Jason one, selfishly, because I just, I wanted a reason to hang out. But two, I think given his expertise, he makes the perfect guest to talk about today's subject, which is all about mixing. And The episode is going to dive into exactly what mixing entails, because I do think that there's some confusion between what mixing is and what mastering is, when to use a pro mixing engineer and how to do it on your own. If you're going to, we're going to go over like common roadblocks that people hit at home, why mixing is particularly difficult to learn, and a lot more. So without further ado, [00:02:00] please welcome Jason McGlone. Thanks Jason: Thanks for having me, happy to be here. Yeah, Stephen: it's, it's wild that we haven't met. I'm excited to have you here, and I want to know more. So why don't we start with your background, what brought you here, what you've been up to the last 15 years and just give people some context. Jason: Great. Well, I kind of started my musical journey, originally from Detroit, Michigan. metro Detroit kind of area. And I remember being in bands as a kid and always loving that process of recording. And I had a really great mentor named Jeff Robinson who actually did the Friends theme song, which is hilarious. But he kind of opened my eyes to this other side of music and the hilarious thing is at the time I was like, okay, this is cool, but I don't really want to be doing any of that. It wasn't, it wasn't kind of piquing my interest. And then, ended up going to school for music, [00:03:00] came to the twin cities, loved the scene here, immediately fell in love with the cities and kind of the community that was happening here. And, yeah, basically. Went to school. Learned a lot, spent a lot of time playing in other bands and that's sort of the seed that Changed my perspective of what should I be doing here in the music business? And that was well i'm in all these bands. I need to be able to record this and we don't have any money So I got to figure this out somehow and I think that's a great place for this job to be kind of born from a lot of people want to kind of skip the step or You You know, go right to production. Maybe they haven't played any music, which is fine, but it's, it can be a tough road, but when it's born of a need, that passion is always kind of underlying, you know? And so, I would ask anybody who knew anything about recording what they were doing. I was that annoying kid saying, Hey, what are you [00:04:00] doing? Why are you putting that there? What kind of mic is that? What's going, you know, but just very inquisitive. And. Every time I learned something and tried something, I felt like, I was making this huge step. I remember getting a drum sound for the first time and being like, oh my gosh, this is, this is what I've been hearing on other records. Because as a drummer, like, I always wondered, well, why do my hi hats sound like this? And then I listened to a record and they sound amazing. Or what's what's going on with the snare drum, right? And so we're starting to kind of. Connect the dots of all these things really really important time of playing Networking and experimenting. Jason: I think that was kind of a big moment for me So a lot of my early years were just that experimenting meeting people going to shows I mean I would go see The, uh, B3 Organ Night at the Artist's Quarter in St. Paul every Tuesday. I feel like I learned more about [00:05:00] music just watching Billy Franzi play the guitar and Bill Brown play organ and, you know, I mean, that was like school in itself. You know, you can learn so much at school, but until you kind of see it in action, you're like, Oh, this is, this is it. You know what Stephen: Yeah. Jason: so yeah, that, and then transitioning into, eventually making this a job. Joe Mabbitt, who owns the hideaway studio was one of my teachers and we had an assignment where we had to do a mix. And I remember just being so excited about the song that he gave us. It was so cool. And I was like, I really want to spend a lot of time on this and make it really cool. And so. I did. Joe liked it, invited me to the studio, kind of the rest is history, but even, you know, now when I'm teaching my students, I try and give them things to work on that I think that they'll be really excited about because that. Has to occur to do good work. [00:06:00] if you're kind of not into what you're doing, it's really difficult to do a good job. And you, you know, this too, as a mixed engineer and tracking engineer, but, there are some days where you're like, why is this not happening? for me right now. What's going on? Like, you know, why can't I get this mix to sit right? And, sometimes you need space from it or whatever it is. But, yeah, finding out that workflow is really important for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So you were a McNally student, correct? Yeah. And you studied, percussion then? Percussion. I did a bachelor's of percussion and a bachelor's in music production as well. And, Sort of the reasoning behind that was that half of the percussion degree was also half of the production degree So sight singing, music theory, all that There was a lot of overlap. a lot of overlap. So I figured well, this is the time to be here And I'm just going to go for it. I'm going to do both. And it actually worked out great because I ended up being there longer and [00:07:00] met sort of a larger group of people that way Stephen: Mm. Jason: from just purely being around. And so that, you know, it was sort of an unseen thing that, I didn't expect to meet so many different people. And now all those peers are people that I'm working with every day for Stephen: Yeah, that networking is so and so critical. Yeah, I think that's one of the huge takeaways of going to a program. Obviously, there's the educational component of that, which speaks for itself. However, there's so many resources today to learn on your own. And there's an argument to be made that particularly, well, I don't know, probably in every area, you know, doing it is probably a better education than studying it. However, the network that comes with school programs, as long as you utilize it, is hard to replace. Jason: It's true, Stephen: Yeah. So how many bands were you planning when you, when you graduated then? Jason: I mean, there was a time where I was probably playing in three or four original bands and maybe [00:08:00] five or six cover bands. So spending a lot of time, quickly learning a lot of songs was something I spent a lot of time doing. Making charts, listening over and over and over. And that was just to kind of pay the bills and, and sustain that thing. And, you know, at that age, I didn't mind loading my drums in and out of a bar at 3am, you know, that was exciting to me. So, I felt very at home at that. Yeah, and then time that wasn't on the gig or doing weddings or whatever else, you know, we were writing music in the garage and, and being creative and learning from each other and challenging each other and, yeah, all that good stuff. Stephen: I know. So you eventually meet Joe at the hideaway, start engineering, interning, like, Oh, what was that process? Jason: So originally, We brought a project to the studio because I figured it's tough when the studio is already a studio [00:09:00] for me to just walk in and say, Hey, hire me to be the person to work here. Part of the thought was, well, why don't I just bring a project here? We have access to this space. It'll be a good chance for me to meet Joe, talk to Joe, start learning from Joe, start watching what he's doing. And so I remember bringing a couple of projects into the studio and just learning everything I could from what, what he was doing. And I really have learned so much from Joe over the years, not just recording wise, but how to deal with clients and how to be a good service and yeah, all those things for sure. Stephen: what point did you start renting a room there? Jason: So, for the longest time, I was mixing out of my living room, and currently had two other roommates at the time, God bless those roommates, because, I mean, I'm in there soloing a snare drum for half an hour, and, you know, [00:10:00] it can't be fun, to be honest. They were both musicians, they both understood, and I would often have people come over to listen to mixes and do things like that. But it just got to a point where I was like, okay, people are coming over almost every day. Something's just gotta change here. And so I reached out to Joe and I said, hey, you know what? You know, let me know if you hear of any spaces around town would love to get in somewhere and start working full time. And he's like, well, you just move into the B room. And so brought all my gear over there. And it really was one of the best things that happened, because I could leave work and quite literally leave the work there when I was working at home. People were emailing, texting, all hours, and I would feel obligated to get those things to people instantly. And having that work balance of, oh, I'll be in tomorrow morning, you know, was a really important thing for me because [00:11:00] I just wanted to Be so, service minded, and I wanted to get people the things they needed right away. Stephen: Boundaries are important. Jason: are huge! Exactly, yep. So, that was a big moment for me, kind of eye opening. Stephen: And so when was that when you moved in Jason: Oh, boy. let's see.2017? 2016? Something like that? Somewhere in there? Yeah. Stephen: And how long have you been teaching at Hamlin now? Jason: this is year three now, and so I'm teaching audio mixing, uh, recording techniques and live sound. Currently, Stephen: Okay. Did you do a lot of live sound? Jason: I didn't do a lot, a lot of live sound. part of the degree at McNally obviously was learning a lot of that stuff as well, and I've had a lot of friends who've done live sound. Part of that program too was me saying, okay, I know about live sound, but let me really dive into this. and figure out how I can make this make sense to people. And one of my goals is that when they leave my [00:12:00] class, they could go into any venue and figure their way through a gig, you know, and feel confident enough to get things going. As you know, like, you know, a lot of the formats are different, but they all contain the same thing. So if you know what you're looking for, it's easy to kind of page through things and figure out where those things are. Stephen: Nice. What is your teaching schedule like? How many days a week are you on campus? Jason: three days a week and the program currently is growing quite a bit. If you do know Jeff Bailey, wonderful bass player, and he was actually the head of the bass department at McNally Smith, but he has been, such a great mentor for me over the years and is really kind of stressing this importance of learning how to do music production yourself. At McNally Smith, I think they missed an opportunity with how divided those performance and production things were. And we're really trying to [00:13:00] integrate those two things together. If, if you're a musician, you do know how to record, you know, how to get a decent setup at home, you know, how to send people files. it's, it's almost a requirement these days Stephen: I think it should be. Yeah. I absolutely think it should be that everyone should have some level of knowledge on how to self record. You don't need to be a pro at it, but you need to be able to get your ideas down and. Obviously the better quality, the better for you, you know, the easier you make it on yourself. But absolutely be able, being able to hear yourself back from recording makes you a much better musician. every instrumentalist. If you can record at home to a click track, if that's important part for your genre, that alone, working on rhythm and timing, right? If you're a singer, being able to visually see your accuracy in a, in a plugin like Melodyne or autotune. Huge. You know, I studied voice for eight years. Never did that once. I'm thinking to myself, like how, how helpful that would have been to be like, let me [00:14:00] run this piece and track it through auto tune and see what it tells me. Oh, I'm consistently flat here. I'm consistently sharp here. that's hard for anybody to be that accurate, to give you that feedback for any, any teacher to be like, yeah, you missed it by 20 cents, you know? Yeah. Good luck. autotune can do that. Jason: can. Stephen: So, the educational benefit that lies in being able to, to understand these tools yourself, and it's not that hard. It it's pretty accessible. The technology is becoming more and more affordable every year. So I a hundred percent agree with you. there's still a huge wall between like, you know, being okay at it and being great at it. but everybody should have that in their arsenal. Jason: hmm. 100%. Yeah. Stephen: And also about the file transfer, as you were saying, and just some basic management of being able to collaborate remotely in a professional way. Jason: Yeah. Stephen: It seems like that should be obvious, but man, it's not. It's really not, you know, the amount of people [00:15:00] that struggle to figure out how to send big files or how to accurately send a home session to somebody else, where the files aren't missing. Yeah, that's the world we're going to live in. There's no way around that. So yeah, having, having a base competency there is so important. Jason: Yeah. I've been really, over the last maybe 10 years, thinking about teaching people everything that I know about recording Anyone who comes to the studio to record or anyone who comes to mix or edit or whatever it is I really make it a point to tell people what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. And it's only helped those projects over the years because then they have a better understanding of the process and they start to have a better understanding of how they can improve their tone or their performance without me having to Tell anything. So it's, it's kind of like, we're all sharing all of this information right from the get go. I've never been a person [00:16:00] to kind of hide secrets or whatever of like, I think the more everybody knows about what I'm doing, the better, Stephen: I agree. I usually start with lingo just so that there's communication of, you know, basic stuff like, I would say one of the most common things that I end up explaining to somebody that's a beginner is this is what reverb is and this is what delay is. These, this is how they're different so that they can start differentiating what they hear and ask more specifically of like, okay, yeah, I want more of the delay. That's what I want. so lingo, I think is a big part of it. I think then feedback on performances is huge of, Yeah, that's a great take. If you want to keep working on this, this is the next step. You know, it's always ahead. It's always ahead. You know, think about it this way. you know, so maybe tips about how to play to a click better or, techniques about vocal performance. There's a lot of little things like that that [00:17:00] come in next. I think, I probably, I don't go too deep into like, this is how I'm going to produce this or mix this. Just because unless somebody is truly interested in that, that's probably above and beyond, but when they are, yeah, sure. Let's let's chat about it. Cause then I get to geek out about it and that's always fun. Jason: Yeah. Even a couple of clients I'm working with right now. you know, when people can see what is possible in terms of editing, in terms of tuning, sometimes they want to have control over that process. And I'll walk people through step by step. Okay, here's how you edit in Pro Tools. And then send me some stuff, I'll let you know what I think. And, you know, really helping them To feel empowered in that process and feel like, cool, they're getting what they need and they're learning something at the same time. And that whole thing is, is really great to just share information with the community. There's a lot of YouTube videos out there, but there's kind of nothing like being in person one on one with somebody [00:18:00] and really sitting down and saying, here's what I do, you know, you could also do it this way if Stephen: YouTube videos never contain nuance part of the issue with finding information in Today's age where there is so much information is that it's hard to get to something advanced. It is very easy to find the beginner answer, the most common hiccup and roadblock that people run into, or maybe the first two or three. But when you get deep into something, finding the answer to that can be trickier.partially because it's hard to know even how to ask the question. Sometimes it's not even clear what your, what term you're trying to use or what the tool is or technique is, or something like, you know, I don't know. it gets tricky. So it can be harder to find answers. The deeper you go, whereas the one on one thing then is so valuable. Jason: Right. And I mean, you could be in Pro Tools and hit one key accidentally. And [00:19:00] all of a sudden you're like, Oh, what just happened? You Stephen: Yeah. And then it's, it can be hard to phrase that problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. all right. Well, I think this is a great segue into getting a little bit more specific into the mixing conversation today. why don't we start with just describing what the role of mixing is and particularly in differentiating it from mastering and I'll let you take it Jason: So mixing would be defined as taking multitrack audio and combining it into a stereo or surround sound medium. In our digital age, we can take many, many tracks and combine them into a stereo file. So at its simplest form, that's, that's really what we're doing. And what I try and tell people that I'm teaching mixing is that if you can break mixing down into four main categories, it can really help you to know when you're done mixing. I mean, we've all seen that. Meme of the skeleton at the console, like, you [00:20:00] know, when's the mix done? Never, you know, but if you follow those four concepts of balance, blend, placement, and depth, those are great places to get people started in mixing. And when we're talking about balance, we're talking about. What's the loudest thing in the mix? What's the next loudest thing in the mix? Right? And this can change wildly from genre to genre, right? And so if you are going to start getting into mixing, you can start listening to a lot of music and start prioritizing volume as you hear it, right? Okay, in EDM the kicks really loud. Hip hop kicks really loud. Rock snares really loud. Pop music. Vocals are really loud and you start to find these patterns in all of the volume relationships. And I think what a lot of people don't understand is that that's really what the listeners are hearing when they identify a genre are those balances, sort of subconscious, those balances [00:21:00] between, you know, all of those elements. So balance, I mean, you could also think about compression in that way as well, which is a totally different conversation, but, and then. blend, you'd be thinking about the frequency relationships from one instrument to another. if they're playing in the same range. You're going to have an issue with some of that blend, right? So if something has too much 400 Hertz, and you need something that has 400 Hertz to poke out in the mix, simply cut the one, insert the other. It's almost like putting a puzzle together, right? That's a kind of simple way to think about that. But if our, our human hearing is from 20 Hertz to 20, 000 Hertz, where does everything lay in that spectrum? Right? And so oftentimes people are reaching for an EQ, soloing something up, and they're EQing something a lot to try and get it to stick out in the mix. But you really need to listen to all of those things [00:22:00] together and how they're interacting. And one of my mentors always told me that, Mixing is arranging. They're both kind of the same thing, right? And so as you're writing music, start thinking about that. Where does this instrument fit? into the frequency spectrum, right? And maybe, you know, if we're going to double guitars, we should do an inversion of the other guitar, or they shouldn't be in the exact same range. And if you start doing that with your productions, you really will find that there's not a lot of blending to be done. If you've already kind of thought about that in the songwriting process, right? Jason: and then placement, obviously we have a stereo field, so we can pan things to the left, pan things to the right, everything in between. and then depth is using time based effects, so do you want something to be really far away from you? Do you want it to be really close? And that kind of gets you there. But if you really focus on those four [00:23:00] things, I think you are mixing. You are absolutely improving what's there. You're combining those things together into a stereo file. Stephen: so then, what is mastering, in contrast? So mastering, I guess in the traditional sense would be taking a group of songs. And these days, I mean, I've worked with artists that have had their entire album, every track was mixed by somebody else. And that would be a great example for somebody to use a mastering engineer would be that we've got all these different tracks. Some have a lot of bass, some don't have a lot of bass, some have a lot of trouble, different frequencies, you know, kind of song by song. And the job of the mastering engineer there would be to make those all sound cohesive. So give them all the same amount of low end or high end or whatever it may be. And. You know, I've found that mastering engineers specifically are really, really good at that particular job [00:24:00] is listening to the album front to back, finding those places where things need more volume or less volume. I think part of the issue with some of the AI mastering is that they all end up getting mastered to the exact same volume. And if you're listening to an album, sometimes it's nice to have an ebb and flow of dynamics. now if you're doing singles, I think it's perfectly acceptable to use something like that. And if budget permitting, it's a great option for people. If they just need to get things out quickly, but the mastering engineer will really consider those small details of your project that you've worked so hard to get out, right. Jason: That's the last stop, right? So the other thing the mastering engineer can do would be to embed any kind of metadata that you would want. I S R C codes, all kinds of things like that. and then get it to a final volume. That's going to sound good on various speakers. Yeah, We're various playbacks. Stephen: I would add a few little clarifying pieces for people that are new to [00:25:00] both those concepts. First is that the mastering engineer, while they can use a lot of the same tools that are accessible to a mixing engineer, they're generally only working off of the mixed file. They have one stereo track versus every individual track that the mixing engineer is working on. So that's one of the big differentiators of there's less that the mastering engineer can specifically tweak about every little part. Although the, the technology and tools make that pretty crazy now. But, and that's partly because that's supposed to be done at that point. When a song is going to mastering post mixing, you like how it sounds. And the idea of mastering is more in the realm of quality control of, Yep. That sounds great. I'm just going to tweak it 5%. Just a little bit of a push a nudge, but all the creative decisions in terms of how loud the [00:26:00] vocals going to be and how punchy the kick drum is and so on and so forth, that's mixing. Jason: Absolutely. Stephen: I often have artists reach out, can you master my track? And what they're asking for is mixing, mixing And so I think it's just helpful to keep clarifying that in people's minds. Those terms get used, get conflated often. Jason: Yep. Oh, it's a great point of thinking of, yeah. Mixing as all of those stereo or all of those individual tracks coming together, mastering, just dealing with those stereo files. Stephen: Yeah. [00:27:00] [00:28:00] okay, so let's get into people that are interested or maybe are currently doing mixing at home. As we said earlier in the episode, we recommend everybody being able to do some home recording. So, okay, they did and now they want to mix it and they want to take a bounce and put it in their car and listen to it. So they start mixing. as we both know, [00:29:00] mixing is difficult. it's a, a very complex art and it takes years to master. Where should somebody start when it comes to mindset about mixing, like expectations maybe? And then what do you recommend in terms of self education? Jason: Yeah, I think a great place to start is to start listening to music and doing mix analysis of what you're hearing. That really helped me out a lot and starting to notice those patterns of what people are using and how much reverb they are using. A thing that, you know, a lot of people will come and say is, I want my drums to sound like John Bonham. When you listen to the recordings of John Bonham, you notice that there's not a lot of low end in the bass drum or really in the drums at all, right? And then if you say EQ'd your drum set to sound like that and then they listen to it and they're like, well, that doesn't sound very good. And to them, John Bonham, the sound of that means [00:30:00] big. It means I want my drums to sound big and roomy. And so you need to really start listening to those things and figuring out What makes this that? What is interesting about that sound? Stephen: And what I would want to point out is that that's actually harder than you think. I agree. That's the right place to start. However, it can be deceiving. And to that point, often when we listen to something and we think this mix is amazing, usually what it really comes down to is this song is amazing and I love this song. I love this artist and therefore I think the mix is awesome. it is a place to start. I agree, but it's actually maybe one of the places to end is when you've actually started to figure out mixing a little bit. It's because now you can start to listen differently. What makes mixing difficult is the listening factor and everybody thinks, well, I can, I can listen. It's fine. No, no, you can't actually. Listening is hard. It's a [00:31:00] very, very difficult thing and If you don't believe me, try a few things once if you are mixing at home, mix the track and then feel good about it and then just invite a friend into the room and have them listen to it with you that is, you know, going to be critical about it, that has never heard it and listen and then see how it sounds to you as soon as another person walks in the room, it will likely change all of a sudden like that. that song will sound different to you because somebody walked in the room. That's the thing. Listening has a lot to do with your mental ability to be objective because we listen with our feelings. A lot of times we listen on how it makes us feel. And A poor mix, but a really great song is still a great song and it can conjure up these stories in our mind and these emotions and memories and all of these things that just go, this is awesome, but the mix may not be that good. Jason: Right. Stephen: [00:32:00] And so that's why mixing is tricky. And that's why mixing your own stuff is tricky because while you're doing it, you're also telling yourself a story about this song and about what it means to you and what you, how you think it'll make other people feel and, and how it'll reflect on, on you and so many other things all simultaneously while you're trying to make that snare sound great. And part of becoming a good mixing engineer is being able to compartmentalize that and turn that off and just listen objectively. Okay. So it is the starting place and it's the ending place is the listening conversation. Let's talk about, basically where to start? Is it the best thing to just be like, yep, start moving those faders, dig in trial and error. Cause obviously that's going to be a part of the process. I think that was kind of how I got into it. Essentially. I'm guessing that's how most people do. They just start moving things, being creative. What does this do? Let's try this. I do think that that's a great place to start, but I think, If you can combine [00:33:00] that with some structure of learning, you're going to go so much faster. And I'm sure you can talk on that a little bit because, you know, you actually teach structure. Jason: totally. And I think simply following those four concepts of mixing is a huge help, but also getting things organized is a big one in a way that you like to see things. you know, oftentimes you can get a session with 60, 70 files and. You'll hear something and you'll be like, where, what is that? What is that track? I'm hearing what's going on here. But having a really good understanding of what's there already and how to access it quickly is huge and a big part of that. This is maybe a little bit more of a advanced conversation, but, but routing things in a way that. You know where everything is and how to get to those things individually. If I need to turn my entire drum set up, I'm not selecting every single file and turning them all up one DB. You're grouping them [00:34:00] together. You're using an ox, you're doing all those different things. And that was a big eye opener for me in mixing was, Oh, I can actually make this much easier for myself by just simply being organized. Stephen: I would agree. I actually think that's maybe one of the best places to start because anybody can do it. Label your tracks. make groups meaning that you can control a group of tracks So if you have eight mics on a drum kit for instance or eight channels of MIDI on a program drum kit that you can move All those things together Groups are usually customizable so you can you can control how they are grouped together like what moves together and what doesn't so labeling grouping Color coding. You might think, I don't need all that stuff. Yes, you do. If you want to get good at it. Yes, you do. And here's the quick why of why it's important. It's because you'll go faster. And the longer you spend on that mix, the worse you're going to do. People think, Oh, that's counterintuitive. Like you should work hard at it and try hard. And that's true. But [00:35:00] the longer you spend on that, the more of an imprint it has on your mind. And it goes back to that listening thing that we stopped, talked with. You cannot hear it. The same way the thousandth time, like you're going to hear it the first time. One of the most valuable things, and this relates back to why we hired mixing engineers that have never heard the project before. One of the most valuable things you can have is a fresh listen. The first time you hear a song, it's clear. you sure, you might need a one or two passes at it to really process it, but If something's wrong, it stands out. You just know. And again, if you've, if you've dabbled in mixing and you've, you know, worked on it for hours and hours or months, days, whatever, and then You moved on, you went to something else and a few months goes by and I'm going to listen to that track again. And you pull it up and you go, what? sound anything like I remember that has happened to everyone. If you spent enough time doing it, that's that imprinting happening because you worked on it so long, you really stop hearing it. the ability to [00:36:00] objectively hear a track like it's the first time is a very difficult thing. It's like a Zen like skill that takes years to master. You work at it forever. every time you're needing to make small changes, you've got the track playing for hours. to make go from version three to version four, you're losing your ability to really hear that track. and even seasoned mix engineers know that this is why they will move as fast as possible. So part of the track labeling, color coding, grouping, routing, understanding where everything's at, having it as cleaned and as organized as possible all goes down to that. Then you do not have to spend that much time on the mix. And all of those things can happen with the sound off and they should don't have it just playing while you do all that stuff, silence, get things organized and then listen through that way you can make changes quickly. Jason: Love that. So true. Stephen: I think organizing is a great place to start after that. I do think that just having some fun and playing around is a great place to [00:37:00] start. However, I would highly encourage people to dig into some form of education sooner than later. There's not a good excuse because there's so much of it online. Now there's a lot of bad stuff out there too. like, you don't have to commit to one source right away. Like dig around, and find, you know, especially if you're, influencers, for instance, on Tik or whatever, like. comes in all forms. Some of it's going to be for you and some of it's not. and particularly in the mixing world, you're going to see people that just, this is how to do Jason: Oh, red flag. Stephen: yeah. And when it comes to mixing, there is no one way you can mix, make a great mix. any number of ways. I get sessions sent to me from people that are self recording and it's like, they'll have the craziest EQ up on something. And I can see like in the preset, it's like it, you know, some, some person's preset that they sold. Like, this is what you should do to your vocals. And I'm just like, delete, you know? so don't, [00:38:00] don't trust that stuff. What you need to learn is not what the settings are. You have to learn theory. Now, we're not going to tell you all the theory in this. That's like I said, this takes years, but you need to find a source that you can start getting a sense of what those theories are and what they're going to be for you. You might find that somebody's approach to it really resonates more than others. so I would say, you know, you can start with the free sources. and see if you find something that is really helping you, but don't be afraid to invest some money in some of these paid courses, whether it's a timed course that you go through, or if it's just access to, you know, actual like structured videos, long form videos on this with a seasoned veteran or somebody that you like their work. I know that when I started. You know, I had done a lot of mixing. I'd done professional mixing for people from trial and error and from learning from a mentor and that sort of thing. Interning is another great way. And we should also say [00:39:00] when it comes to mixing, but You know, I was hard. I want to get faster at this. I want to get better at this. I started paying for just some tutorials, whether it was a, an ebook that just had some helpful tips to access to, you know, anything from, you know, there's mixed with the masters. There's pure mix. There's a ton of really great resources out there. Those are all helpful. Jason: Very much Stephen: very, very helpful. So if you want to take it seriously, I would say those are definitely worth the money. Jason: 100%. Yes. Yep. And just, not being afraid to, to experiment, you know? I think a big thing that can help, You find your voice as a mixer is, is doing things like reamping things that are in your mix already. I mean, all my Hamlin students, I mean, it's their favorite day of class where we, we take things from the mix that are already recorded. And we send them through the output into a DI box wired in reverse. And then we send maybe a vocal through an amp [00:40:00] in the room, right? And then we can mic the room. But when you start doing some of those things, all of a sudden it becomes more interesting, you know? When we don't hear music, like this, you know, we, we experienced music in a venue and we're standing many feet back and it's exciting and it's interesting. And I think that's a really low cost thing for someone to do. If you have a cheap guitar amp and a DI pedal, you can do a lot of really cool things with your mix. And then you have a sound now that's your sound. And it's not. Preset ABC, you know, on a plugin, you have a cool thing that you're proud of and, you know, you can kind of lean into that in the mix. Stephen: Sure. Yeah. Jason: absolutely. Stephen: Okay. So there's. there's getting organized, there's start having fun, play with things, you know, see what breaks, see what, see what's crazy about pushing things to their max. actually, let's dive into that for just [00:41:00] a second because I think that's another big thing that I recommend when people are asking me about. you know, how does this compressor work? And like, what happens when this, so as you're playing and having fun and you're learning, you're starting to understand like what the key EQ is for, what compressors are for. I think a great way to get to know plugins and or gear hardware is push it to the max. if you want to know like, yeah, what does attack do on a compressor? Turn it all the way up. And push a lot of level through it and really hear what's happening and then turn it all the way down. And okay, when you push things to the max, you really, even though it's not the setting you're going to end on, you can really start to hear what's happening. You know, cause again, mixing can be these really tiny micro subtle movements that are. Hard to hear right away, depending on your room and your speakers and things like that. You may not even notice some of the differences that are happening, which can make it really hard of like, I don't know, I'm moving this, but nothing's happening. Move it further. don't be [00:42:00] afraid to take something way too extreme just to hear what happens. And then, and then when you feel like, okay, I understand what that parameter does, then dial it back. Jason: yeah, they say the average listener on a, consumer stereo system will be able to tell a three dB volume change, which in our mixing world, sometimes we're moving things 0. 5, 0. 8, right? But it's a really good thing to remember is that if you're going to make something louder, Make it really obvious that it just got louder. That's what's exciting about music is dynamics. And I think sometimes those little micro volume movements, you can get lost in that stuff. Am I making this better? Am I making this worse? I don't really know. Like you said, go to the extremes, push it way up, push it way down, see what happens. How does that make you feel? And you'll find that middle ground actually quite easily if you approach things that way. Absolutely. Stephen: The next I would say, and probably one of the most common roadblocks that [00:43:00] people run into when they try to self mix is the fact that, because maybe they've been doing it for a while, they've got educational resources, they have a good grasp of the theory, they've got some tools. But the fact is, is that you need good speakers in a good room at some point, you can only do so much. Now. The technology and headphones is getting better and better and there are people that are mixing in headphones and doing a good job. So there is a way to do that. as it stands now, you still probably need a good room and good speakers. I think the headphones are close. even for headphones, then you got to get, you got to get the stuff that can do that, that has the tech to do that. That's kind of very new right now. It took me a long time to understand the role of acoustics when it comes to mixing, in that the room that you're sitting in Jason: Mm Stephen: what you hear. It's not a little bit, it's a lot. It's a lot. which is why another common thing you'll [00:44:00] see is people will, Get a mix sounding great at home on, on the computer set up, go pop it in the car and be utterly disappointed that it just sounds like trash. How does that happen? It's because the acoustics of your room are changing what you sound. So it does sound good at your, in your bedroom where you're recording it and mixing it. But that room is coloring the sound. So when you go to a different location where there's a different type of coloring, you've made all of your decisions based on how it sounds in that one room. And then you put it in your car and it sounds terrible. That's what happens. So if you want to be good at mixing on a serious level, you have to start thinking about the acoustics of your room and the quality of your speakers. Jason: 100%. furthermore, understanding that, you know, if I love the sound of my bass in my room, but then I go to my car and it sounds really thin, understanding that, what's going on here? Why is that happening? Oh, my, my room is giving me more bass. And [00:45:00] so what sounds like a proper amount of bass to me now, when I go to the car, it sounds really thin and not to say that you even need a amazing room or maybe amazing speakers, but the sooner you can figure out those things and figure out your room, okay, it does sound pretty bad. I've treated it the best I can, and I've only got these budget speakers, but really. Dialing in, how can we use this stuff and then use the car as a resource to eventually get what you want. It's going to take you some time for sure. But really diving into that process of, why is it sounding this way and how can I fix it Stephen: Yes. Yeah. And we're not going to get into like all those techniques. again, do your research. You can find software that helps you with this. There's a ton of tutorials on Treating rooms and setting up acoustics and all that kind of stuff. It's a never ending road. You know, beware once you start, it'll take a lot of money. but you're absolutely right. You don't, it's not that you need to have a [00:46:00] world class room to do good work. You can do good work in a bedroom. You just have to understand that what you're hearing is maybe not accurate and then compensate. That's the main takeaway here is that you have to understand how are you being lied to right now? And if you know that, then you can work around it, but you are being lied to always. Yeah. You just have to know how, and if you know how, then you can work around that. Okay. I think we've covered a lot of the most common roadblocks. Is there anything else you want to dive in to that's a good tip for anybody at home? Jason: in terms of mixing. Yeah, I think we covered a lot of the good Stephen: Okay. Yeah. I want to get to one other thing here before we wrap up the conversation, which is at what point. Should you start working with a pro mixing engineer? Jason: Sure. I think when you've reached, and you know, this was true for me, even when I was mixing, you feel like you've done everything you can do and you've worked really hard at it, but it's [00:47:00] still not where you're envisioning the project landing. And that's a big segment of the clients that I work with is they work really hard on getting everything there, getting the arrangement and the song good, and they just need another set of ears. Like you said, Kind of objectively listening to things and to take it to that next professional level. I think at that point, you know, okay, it's, it's time to invest, be it as a single artist or as a band, let's invest in this and take this thing to the next level. Absolutely. Stephen: Yeah. I think when you know that it's without, not within your grasp and you, it's important to do that. I think it's also comes down to how do you want to spend your time? You have a lot of things going on as a, as an independent musician, a lot of responsibilities, a lot of hats to wear. My recommendation usually is, yeah, that's the first thing to outsource above all tasks is the mixing one, just because it probably has some of the biggest impact [00:48:00] on how you're going to be perceived, you know, from a specific music level, the mixing is going to play probably the largest role. And Yeah. It's the hardest thing to get right. And if you really want to get it right, it takes the most time and the most investment of all the things, probably. So it's the easiest one to go. Yeah. Outsource that one. Jason: Mm hmm. Stephen: Some people just like doing it. And I, I always appreciate when people do that. Our home recording, you know, take time to do the mix as good as possible because it, it helps signal what they're going for to me. So I can go, okay, this is what you had. Jason: Mm Stephen: to do. And now I can run it through my system, my process and, you know, get it to where I think you wanted it to be. you know, so it comes down to as long as you can afford to do it, I do think that's probably one of the, one of the services that's most beneficial to outsource is mixing, but it's fun to do it on your own and you still should as much as possible. And one thing that I recommend a lot to people is [00:49:00] do both. Again, we live in a time where. You can't have too much content. Like you need to put out stuff all the time. And I encourage people like, yeah, okay. When you are getting ready to do that EP or that record where you want it to be as pro as possible, I'll do that. And then in between do acoustic versions and alternate whatever besides and. Cover songs and all stuff. Do that at home and learn how to mix that yourself. You do not need to pay a pro for that. Like that's just good social media fodder. Like put it out there. get it good enough and use that as a way to learn. Like, does this sound good enough for social media? Because that's a much lower bar. People are only listening on a phone, maybe an AirPods, but they're not judging it. You know, it's not Jason: They're just saying do I like this or don't Stephen: yeah. And it's like 30 seconds of it to, you know, Whereas, when your song comes up on a playlist next to somebody else's that was done by a serious [00:50:00] pro, you know, you need to compete if, if, it doesn't sound good, skip. So I do think that you can divide responsibilities that way to some extent. and you know, if you are a, an aspiring mixing engineer, like maybe your, your goal is to be a hundred percent self sufficient. I would say then just follow the steps that we kind of outlined with, education, with organization, the four areas that you mentioned, how to divide your mix and know when it's done. probably have at least one other person on your team, whether that's maybe your mastering engineer or just somebody you can trust that can help give you some objective feedback when you get too lost in the weeds and take breaks, do not work on it too much. The, the more you work on it, the harder it gets to make it better. You will just keep losing it. I am working on last night. I was working on a project with somebody that has a complete home studio set up, and I'm doing some overdubs and then mixing It gets harder and harder for them to make any changes at all, [00:51:00] anything better, where it was just to the point where it's like, I'll just do this now. Like, I just have to take over. Like, they, they're just, they've heard it too many times. Yeah. And. Now I'm going to finish it with my creativity because they know, like they, luckily they are aware that they are experiencing demo itis at that moment and that they just have lost their ability to make anything better and trust me to, to finish it from there. But that'll happen. Like you, you have to give yourself breaks. You have to give yourself time away from tracks. Jason: 100%. Yeah. Really important. Stephen: When it comes to picking a professional mixing engineer, obviously do some homework. I think a lot of people probably go off referral, you know, you and I, it's a lot of how we get clients, right? if you don't have that in your network now, or you don't know who to ask, then you can dig around, you know, and start Googling studios and mixing engineers in my area. obviously this is a service that does not need to be local. however, if you want somebody like [00:52:00] Jason or I to be able to sit with you And say, yeah, let's talk about the lingo or the, you know, the process of how to do this well so that you can understand this better staying local has a huge advantage for that. Plus you get to hear it in a studio potentially, which is Right. And there's so many great studios and engineers Jason: here. I mean, really are a lot. it's amazing. Stephen: It's impressive. Yeah. The quality of work here is great. It's very high. So do your work. Listen to their stuff. Make sure you understand again what their role in it is. and going back to the, one of the first things we talked about with listening is Do you like the mix or do you like the band? You might like both. You might like both, but try to start asking yourself that, and that might help you understand your preferences are. And also when you go to a mixing engineer, you got to like your song. Jason: [00:53:00] Yes. Stephen: know, the mixing engineer is not going to make your song better. They're going to make it sound better, but they're not going to make your song better. so, you know, we don't work miracles in that regard. However, I will say that a lot of times lines are blurred. You know, we do everything we do recording And production. So a lot of times when I get mixes coming, it's like, okay, yeah, I'll mix this, but I'm going to also redo a lot of stuff too. I'm going to, I'm going to edit and I'm going to produce and I'm going to add some new ideas here. which leads me to the last point I wanted to make when it comes to working with the mix engineer, which is once you've picked somebody out, once you've committed to, you know, putting in some money to do this right, the next thing is understanding what you need and knowing how to ask for it and knowing how to communicate with your mixing engineer. As I just alluded to when somebody asked me to mix, because I am a producer, like kind of first and foremost, I treat it through that lens of yes, I will mix this and I'm going to produce it as long as that's [00:54:00] what you want, you know, and I know how to have that conversation, but not everybody will. and not everybody even knows that that's what they needed. So I take time to sort of have that conversation of like, great, I can do this. I'm also hearing X, Y, and Z that I think would make this all better. If you're okay with that, you know, it's going to be a different price for that because we're doing more work. so understanding that. You have to be self aware of, where your song currently is and what you think it needs. Which is part of why it's important to understand these differentiations of like, this is what mastering is. This is what mixing is. This is what production is. Because you get people like, can you master my song? And what they really want is, can you edit it? Can you produce it? Can you mix it? And then can you master it? And the answer to that a lot of times is yes, I can, and I will. And I'm happy to do it. But the more that you understand all those roles, the better you can be in control of your destiny with, with Jason: true. Yeah, that's part of the importance of just [00:55:00] collaborating in general when you're making music is sometimes you would never see that this song could use some different overdubs or some different productions that techniques that somebody's been using for years, but you've never tried. I think that's a wonderful reason to collaborate with somebody. It's like, you know, even if you're in your basement making music by yourself. Yeah. you'll make the best song that you've ever heard, you know, and having another set of ears can open that door to not just you, but you know, now this is speaking to a wider audience just by simply collaborating. So, Yeah. the benefits of collaboration. Are so huge. one thing I tell everybody that comes to me and say, how do I get into this? How do I learn how to do this? and you, you kind of spoke on this a little bit before too, and of your path, which I think you should start by. Doing it like be the musician. there's nothing wrong if you are just really passionate about being an engineer or being a producer and you go straight to that. There are examples of people doing [00:56:00] that successfully. Of course, I just think there's a lot to be said about. First be the musician, write some songs and then pay for some studio time and go do that thing. Stephen: Because as long as you use that time wisely, you will learn a ton, from the engineer that you're working with, from the producer that you're working with, from the mix engineer that you work with. Maybe that's all the same person, or maybe that's three different people that you end up hiring. If you ask questions, you stay curious and you use your time as efficiently as you can and inquisitively as you can, you'll learn so much. And it's only the tip of the iceberg because that's one person or three people's ways of doing thing. And you go to another studio, it's going to be different. And that can just be Such a fast forward through your educational experience versus doing it at home. Trial and error. YouTube, that's the thing. There's a time and place for both, but if you can't afford to do a little bit of, of let's call it pro level [00:57:00] recording, it'll just speed up Your ability to be able to do things on your own, Jason: Yep, so Stephen: plus just the perspective of what it feels like to be the client. If ultimately you want to open a studio, but you've never been the client of a studio, you're missing something. Jason: you're not gonna know what the needs are Stephen: How it feels to be down there. And how it feels to struggle to get a take, how it feels when somebody communicates to you, giving you feedback about something that's really important to you. You know, all of that from the artist standpoint is crucial to being a good mixing engineer. It's crucial to being a good producer and engineer. if you know what it feels like to be on the other side of the glass. Jason: Totally, yeah. You have that common connection at that point with the artists. We both know how this feels. I could sit here and listen to you do 50 vocal takes. It's fine with me, you know? As long as we get one that sounds great, I'm here for it, you know? I think having patience is a big [00:58:00] part of people feeling comfortable with you. And we're not here to rush through this. Let's just take our time and figure out what somebody needs to feel good to perform at their best, you know? Stephen: I agree. And it can be, that can be the same with mixes. You know, I always use the language of draft or version just to set the expectations of nothing's permanent. Jason: Right. This can all Stephen: Here's draft one. Maybe it's done, but it's a draft one and draft two is no big deal. So you know, let's just communicate. Let's stay patient and let's figure out. What exactly you need, particularly with new clients, right? it's not always super cheap for people, right? To do a mix. And so somebody comes up with the cash. I do a mix of their home recording. It changes dramatically in the panic. And you know, I'm fine. I know what I'm doing. It's fine, but I get where they're coming from, but that's part of that language of, like, patience of, well, just tell me what you think, tell me your thoughts, as long as [00:59:00] there's open dialogue, we always get to a resolution of, like, draft two, then it's like, Jason: And they're usually always very simple Stephen: Yeah, in, in somebody's mind, it might be like, this is so off and it's like, well, really all I did was like, turn the vocal up like three DB and, you know, it took me like 10 minutes to change this. It's not a big deal. Like, I think just knowing that, Your relationship with that person is critical. The communication that's going to be a big part of like, as long as you can, be patient and communicate, you're probably going to find, what you need in the end. Jason: Totally. A hundred percent. Yeah, man. Stephen: Right on, man. I feel like I covered everything I wanted to on the mixing conversation specifically. Is there anything that we miss that has come to mind for you? Jason: I think that's a great starting place for people to feel inspired to get out there and, and start trying it out themselves. You know, remembering those four basic things and not spending too much time, like you said, listening over and over and over, [01:00:00] take a break, go take a walk. I always talk about the input and output of your brain. And when you're feeling like low output and not a lot of energy, It's usually because you need to go get some input. So just simply taking a walk, checking out some birds, look at the trees, look at the water, you know, these are, These are really important things for us as creative people and you can get so inundated and so closed in your space, that it becomes really hard to, to make decisions and you'll take a, take a 10 minute walk, come back and it's clear as day, as soon as you come back. So really just finding that balance between your work and what inspires you, I think is a big thing. Stephen: I love that. And I know that there's going to be somebody, there's some kid that has, you know, been at it for a year or two and they're really serious. They want to get good at it and they listened to this episode now, but I didn't get any tactical information. Like they didn't talk about it. One plugin that I need that can make this better. And here's the reason [01:01:00] it's because of what you said, both of us have done this for 15 years we probably have more plugins than we know what to do with. sure, some plugins are going to be useful and you'll find those. And I'm not discounting that. Yes. Figuring out the tools is important. But I think the reason we're focusing so much on these other things, the more philosophical approach, the taking breaks, understanding, listening, is because that is the harder thing. The plugins will come easily. find a couple and learn them. You know, like, that's not the secret. They really aren't. There are a million plugins that can all do cool things. There's not some secret one out there that's all of a sudden going to change your mix. That doesn't exist. That's not the problem. if you have logic, you have all the tools you need. it's the ability to take breaks. It's the ability to learn how to listen, to be objective. Those are the things that will lead to mastery, not plugins. Jason: Correct. Stephen: So you have to be disciplined on that. The plugins, yes, you will get to that. Sure. You can learn those things too, but that's kind of what [01:02:00] I was saying. Like go to courses for that sort of thing. Watch other content. That's fine. You're going to need that along the way. Yes. But treat these other things. The acoustics of your room. your processes, staying organized, that stuff is really where difference starts to happen. Jason: It's so true, even being creative in a space that's set up to not have any technical problems, and it takes a while to get there, but if you can set yourself up to have a creative space, that you can just go and make things without worrying about, is this gonna work or not, is so important. And if you can't get to that level by yourself, it's worth it. Call somebody who can get you to that level and ask them, how do I set this up so that I can just come into this room and not get bogged down because the first time that something happens or something's not updated or something crashes, what's your immediate thought? You're like, well, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm not feeling creative anymore, and that will never disappear. So if you can just set [01:03:00] yourself up to come into a space and just be creative right away, that is huge. Stephen: Couldn't agree more. Yeah. Jason, thank you so much for your time today, for your expertise, for your insights. the last question I ask everybody on the podcast, uh, is after reflecting on, on this conversation, but maybe you can make it wider to any of your experience of being in the scene over the years. But what is one secret that you'd like to pass on to others, that has really helped you navigate the scene or make a, make a living in the scene? Jason: I think finding balance in your life is one of the most critical things that I would tell my younger self to Find other things that inspire you other than making music. I know that sounds crazy because so much of it is doing it a lot, but finding another hobby or finding another thing that gives you that balance. So you are excited to go work on your art. As opposed to feeling like, Oh, I've got to go do this today. And I don't have a lot of energy to do it, but [01:04:00] really finding that balance and finding people who also understand that balance is a really big part of it. And they're not, you know, demanding that you be in a session for 16 hours a day. Like that's a young person's situation. Right. But, you know, The sooner you can figure that stuff out, the happier you'll be in the end, in life and in the art that you're making, because you will be excited to go in and work on it that day because you're well fed, you're rested, you're hydrated. I mean, these are really easy things to overlook. Stephen: Yeah. And I think particularly when you're full time and you're, you know, you're committed into music that point where it can be really easy to get out of balance at that point. But even for people that are students or being a hobbyist that is doing it after work, you know, maybe the, the finding balance is just finding financial stability so that you're not worried about. where money's going to come from, you know, that might actually make your [01:05:00] art better in that sense. There's a lot of different ways that balance can appear in your life, but yes, you have to feel like there's more to it than just mix 25. Jason: Yeah. Totally, man. Stephen: That one is going to be the one. Cool. Well, if people want to reach out and connect with you or follow you, learn more about you, where would you like to send people? Jason: You can find me on Instagram. You can find me, you know, there at Jason E. McGlone. shoot me a message. I love to hear from people. One thing that, I encourage everyone to do if they see this episode and they are inspired by it is send me a message. Even if you just want to mix something, if you just need tracks to mess around with, by all means, reach out. I can be that person to help you to experiment because sometimes that's the biggest roadblock is you just don't have anything to mix. So by all means, reach out, send me a message. Would love to chat and just talk about making art. Stephen: Right on. Jason: Yeah. Stephen: you know, if this was your first episode, I hope you enjoyed it. If you've been [01:06:00] a long time listener now, thank you for coming back. please share this with somebody you think that would be helpful for, if you have ideas for future episodes or think we missed something critical, let me know. I'll have my information and Jason's in the show notes. And bye. You know, let's all connect, feel free to reach out or leave a comment. love to hear from everybody. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next time.