Ep. 36: How Creative Teams Get Things Done with Mike Borell

[00:00:00] Stephen: Welcome to secrets from the scene. My name is Steven Helvig and I'm your host. We're here at Helvig Productions for another episode. And today's topic is going to be on creative teams and ultimately all the important roles that need to be filled with any creative team in order to get things done today, my guest is Mike Burrell. And as I was talking with Mike about. This episode, we actually realized that his day job was going to be a great, [00:01:00] wealth of information for us for this exact topic. Mike's a local musician. He plays in bands. He's got his rock band, 13 arrows, and then he also has a new side project called midnight horses, which is a. More collaborative effort with some other local musicians.we're going to talk about all those things in depth, but as we were talking about his music projects, we realized that his day job, which is as a project manager, for a corporation that was going to actually be a ton of knowledge for how creatives work, in the professional corporate setting and then how they ultimately need to fill these exact same roles when it comes to a band. Now. We're not suggesting that you're going to, you know, start giving yourselves titles or anything like that. But, I think when you think through like all these essential parts, it really helps make for a better culture among your collaborators, whether it's your band or between you and a producer, you and a videographer, you and a graphic designer. And I'm just excited to talk through all [00:02:00] these, sort of parallels and give you some good ideas for how to maybe better set some things up. So without. Further ado, please welcome Mike Burrell. Mike: Hello, thank you for having me. first, just wanted to say, I really appreciate the opportunity and I'm grateful to be on the show and, uh, I think it's a great platform you've set up for the local community and just hoping I can have a little bit of a positive impact and contribution to that. So thank you for having me. Stephen: I really appreciate that, man. Thanks for being here. I'm glad you reached out. I think this is going to be a [00:03:00] helpful thing to think through for people. I will start by saying that I think, a lot of people just start bands and it's just organic and it's whatever, and that's how it should be to some extent. Like if you're just getting things started, these are probably not so important. some things just being free and wild and seeing what happens is. Perfectly fine. But if you're ready to get things done faster or more efficiently, if you're wondering why progress isn't being made, this is going to be the episode for you. Mike: Cool. Yeah. I agree. And, I'm all, all about getting things done. Yeah. Yeah. Stephen: to. If you want to be a creative and you want to, whether it's full time or not, it's equally important in both sides, because obviously if you're full time, then you need to run this thing like a business. But if you're not, you're going to need to make sure your time is used as efficiently as possible, or you're never going to get anywhere because your day job [00:04:00] is going to eat up all of your energy and free time. Mike: Yeah. A hundred Stephen: it's, important across every, every side of this. Before we get into that though, let's talk about you a little bit. Talk about your projects. Let people get to know who you are and what you're up to. Mike: Yeah, so yeah, as you mentioned, I have two main projects. One is a rock band with three of my best buds and we're called 13 Arrows. And we have existed in the Midwest, Minneapolis, local scene, rock and roll for about 20 years. almost 10 years now, I think eight years this year. so that's been the core of my musical activities. And then just in the last year or so started a side project, which I'm calling Midnight Horses. And it really kind of just started as I love songwriting, writing and recording and putting out ideas is my favorite part of the whole thing. And You can only do so many songs and ideas through one filter. And so it was nice to just take some of the things that weren't so precious and have another outlet. And I think that that is a [00:05:00] point we could touch on too, is just, I think that that's even made me a better band member with my other project because of. But, those are really the two things. If you want to check out 13 arrows and midnight horses, Stephen: definitely. So how long has 13 arrows been together? Mike: eight years, I'm pretty sure we're at eight years right now. Yeah. Stephen: And was there a point where you were like, maybe I'm going to go full time into this or. Always going to do the day job route. Mike: basically, when I first started playing music, playing guitar, my dad plays guitar and he always wanted me to do it. And then seventh grade, my very best friend, Will, who I've been in a million bands with, new piano grew up playing that. And then he got a guitar and we were skateboarding together and it's like, Oh, green day and blink 182 and skateboarding and like, okay, I want to play guitar now because my best friend is doing it, we can do it together. And it was immediately we're doing [00:06:00] this to start a band. Like that's why we're going to play guitars, start a band and start writing our own songs. And just have done that ever since. And I would say. Later in high school, it kind of came to that point. What are you going to do after high school? And I wanted to just stop doing school and go on tour with my emo rock band at the time. And, uh, my parents weren't too stoked on that. So they kind of steered me in a, at a, happy medium direction where, okay, how about you go? to design school because you still get to pursue a creative field. You can still keep doing music on the side. that was a very, very difficult decision for me. And I often think back like, Oh, what if I would have just even went to school for music or just kept doing the band thing? But I think the topic we're going to discuss today and how What has become my professional career and how it relates back to my music works. I'm really happy that I ended up taking the route I did. And it's been almost kind of mind boggling how intersectional they both have [00:07:00] become. so yeah, I don't, I don't know if I ever will become having my main source of income be music. I would love that. I haven't figured out how to make that happen and also live the life that I like to lead right now. So, That would be great someday, but it's not really the ultimate goal. Stephen: sure. Yeah. And I think that's a very healthy way to approach any sort of music career in general is to make sure that you can cover your bills and, and live a life that you want to live. And then if you can make it work great, go for it. Now, some people jump fully in, you know, and all the power to them. I was, I was kind of that person. So, Mike: I have a lot of respect for Stephen: I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for others either. So there's, there's definitely trade offs, but that's probably a different episode. so you started, you got into the, into the creative world and ultimately you're in the marketing Mike: Yes. Yeah, exactly. So I went to the Minneapolis college of art and design and I focused on advertising and so it was really. [00:08:00] Studying at a design school, but more focused on marketing and business, um, with the ultimate goal to, I, I was planning to get into the field of advertising. I want to work at an advertising agency. I have, family and other friends who do that. And I had experienced a little taste of it. I was like, okay, this seems like a cool thing. and there were a lot of artistic and music. People in that world. And so it seemed just kind of like a good, a good vibe and a nice way to take the more professional career aspect. Stephen: Yeah, definitely. over the years of working in a marketing company, then what you've ultimately picked up is The different roles and responsibilities that are found inside of an entire creative team, because you know, you're only playing one part of a massive machine that is kicking out content for a brand, for a company. and Having to do that at a professional level. So there's not like, Oh, we don't feel like doing it [00:09:00] now. you have deadlines, you have project deadlines. There's a whole team involved and ultimately a bottom line, a profit margin that has to be hit. let's dive into the topic and break down kind of piece by piece, all the different essential roles of any creative team, Mike: yeah. I think I will, there's kind of two ways I was thinking about walking through this. And I think the easiest way might just be a little linear, like where does a project begin and then getting it to the end and all the, all the hands that it changes through throughout that and how they work together. So using this ad agency or marketing team or creative, group. As a metaphor, I think the most important place to start is really with, what we would call strategy and that is going to be okay. How are we going to define what this project is and where we want it to go? And what are the things standing in our way? And so like a really quick example I have here is like, we're just going to start every project with our project brief. [00:10:00] And. Every band I've been in, we've done this same thing. So it's kind of defining what is this and what are people's expectations and visions for it at the beginning. So a project brief might look like, okay, who is our audience? What kind of people are going to be into this? And who are we trying to connect with? What is the message? when is this happening? Like, what are the tactics we're doing? Is there a budget? Is there a schedule? That's going to sound very corporate, and I think there's some different ways that applies to the music world or collaborating in a band, for example. So one other thing I had pulled up here was Midnight Horses. My key collaborator on that is a guy, Dave Mehling, who is just an incredible Involved in a lot of stuff in Minneapolis and the greater Midwest music scene. definitely check out Dave and his own projects, but him and I started midnight horses together, and when I first met with him, we had this document and it's like, okay, what types of genres might this music kind of fit into? So let's just discuss what we're both interested in that. [00:11:00] How do you, would you describe the sound that we're chasing? What are the vibe, like a mood board? This is something you might start a creative project with if it was designed. Like here? I'm just going to straight up read this. So bright lights, dark spaces, happy places. Neon signs, hopes and dreams, free spirits. None of them talk about fast, loud, like rock and roll. It's none of that. It's just, what are the feelings or the emotions or the inspirations that might relate to this? That's kind of something stolen from taken from the design world. And what I will say again, it was, we would call a mood board. So it might be like what types of colors or what types of emotions is it? Dark light, is it contrast? And so I think. Having those discussions with everyone on your team will really help you hone in. Because if you say this is kind of a classic metaphor, and I'm probably saying it the wrong way, but if I said you were coming to me and I make furniture, you said, make me a [00:12:00] chair. That could be anything. We both have totally different chairs in our head right now, but you say, okay, I want a blue chair. Three legs, rocking chair, these types of materials. Like if you don't talk about those things, I'm going to build you a chair and you're going to be like, what the fuck is that? That's not what I wanted because you didn't really talk through all these little details and level sets. So that's kind of step one is like, let's level set with everybody here and just figure out what is this thing we're going to do? Stephen: There feels like there's two big music categories in, in the strategy role, depending on what you're going into when it's the, when it's going into a recording, some of those things that you're talking about mood board related feels like pre production Mike: Yeah, totally. Stephen: the direction of our, of this production going to be? So maybe the strategy could be between you and the producer or you and the other members of the band. But the other thing that you talked about right away also is sort of like, maybe the discussion between band members for what the brand of [00:13:00] the band is of like, you know, maybe the band has been jamming for a while and you've got something going and now it's like, okay, let's, Let's take this to the next step. Let's start playing shows. Let's make a record at that point. Having a brand conversation makes a lot of sense of like, well, how do we want to define this? Maybe you've been playing a lot of different things in the jam like all over the place in terms of genres and feels and now it's time to Narrow it down a little bit and you know, who is this music for? What's our image and sound going to be like, how do we want to coordinate this? that's all branding and we touch on that a lot throughout the podcast, but it's, it's so important, especially today, but it's, it's a huge thing for every company. It's a big thing for bands too, whether or not you want it to Mike: Yeah, exactly. And I had, I had worked for a while at a pretty dedicated, identified ourselves as a branding agency. And so we would do the same thing for any business coming to us. Okay. We're going to, we're going to make chocolate and you'd have all these [00:14:00] conversations before we even get to talking about the product and like how you're making the chocolate. But it's like, What is the brand identity? Because there are a hundred other people on the shelf at Target selling chocolate. Why is anyone going to grab yours? Why am I going to listen to your song instead of the other 500 people on this new rock playlist? it's hard to cut through the noise if you don't know who you are. Stephen: absolutely, especially today. There are so many options for new music and a lot of them are great. And just like that analogy of chocolate on a shelf at a store, like a lot of them are great. You'd probably be happy with a lot of Mike: Yeah. Stephen: You might have a favorite that just specifically on taste, right, of how it tastes. Okay. Purists might say, no, I know what the best chocolate is, but it's only best to you. And a lot of other people aren't ever going to try them all. Yeah, they're gonna pick it based off of other factors, other signals that are coming their way. And those signals might be the price, maybe that's the, the most important thing to you. Or other signals that, [00:15:00] oh, well this brand has values that align with my values because it's, free trade and it's organic and it's whatever, you know, sustainable. Yeah. And so, well, I'll pay for that one. That's the one I'm gonna try. It's the same thing with music. Everybody wants to believe that. No, no, no, no. It's just the music. It is not the case. Mike: a hard lesson to learn. I think because. You start a band. I mean, this is how I thought when I first started my band in sixth grade or whatever it was, we're just going to make music and everything else will fall into place. And really. 20 percent of what you're doing is maybe music. If you're trying to have people listen to it, other than the members of the band, the other 80 percent of what you're doing is not really writing or making or practicing music, which is not always fun for everybody. So that's having these roles and how to figure out who in your team is, you know, interested in doing what outside of just the music part can, make things a little more, smooth. Stephen: Yeah. And [00:16:00] obviously if you've got the world's best chocolate, even in terrible packaging with terrible branding, you'll probably still do all right because people are just like, have you tried this? It's amazing. You got to find it. And that's what we all hope for. I think as musicians, we just hope that, yeah, we've got the world's best song here and people are going to talk about it and they won't be able to, they won't be able not to share this for us. And every now and then you find examples of that happening. Where it just catches fire on its own with no effort, but less and less and less every single year because we have so many options and a lot of them are good. And so you have to now put a better wrapper on things Mike: yeah. say what you to put it. yeah, you definitely. I think that, that kind of transitions to like the next role or part of the process I'd want to talk about is like, This managing of expectations. I think that's a huge thing for functioning well as a team is just being aligned on expectations. People don't like [00:17:00] to be misled or misunderstood or think one thing is happening and everyone else in the band is doing something else. And you're like, wait, what? I don't understand why this is going this way. And so that's kind of the role of like what we would call an account manager. That's usually like the client relations or the person who's. really managing relationships. And I think for a band, a big part of that is, here's an example. Like, let's say you're starting a band and there's five people in the band. And one guy is like, yeah, dudes, we're just going to get together every two Saturdays, crack a couple of beers. Play a couple of guitar riffs, go home. Someone else in the band might be thinking, I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to leave my relationship. I'm going to sell my car. I'm going to get a van. We're going to go on the road. This is like my entire life right now, 24, seven, three 65. Those two people are going to end up in conflict because they have very different expectations of what we're doing and they're not going to understand why. Why aren't you doing the same things I'm [00:18:00] doing or treating this to the same way I am? So I think at the beginning very helpful to align on like, what are we trying to do here? What's the commitment level? What's the ultimate objective and making sure that everyone's on the same Stephen: Totally. I could not agree more. And that's such a real thing in a lot of bands. I think that, you know, the tour conversation or like how dedicated this is my thing, or it's, no, it's just something fun on the side. That's so common. but it happens in a lot of other ways, but a lot of it's time related or commitment related ultimately. While it is super important to have it at the beginning so that you're picking the team that you want to grow with and grow in the same way of, it's really hard to do. And a lot of bands don't start that way. They start when you're in sixth grade or whatever, you know, you're goofing around and that's okay. It's when you, when you notice that. Oh, I'm, I'm really into this and I'm taking this seriously that you might need to have that band meeting to make sure everybody else is on the same page and it's ultimately okay if they're not, you just need to know that [00:19:00] because there are a lot of ways to work around that. For instance, a very common thing that happens along the way is, you know, maybe you're in college when the band starts and then after college, few years, you're playing locally, you start doing a little bit of weekend touring that grows more and more time goes into it. And then somebody gets married. Or somebody has kids and all of a sudden their availability changes drastically. It doesn't mean you necessarily need to fire that person and kick them out of the band. It might just mean that we need to have another sub, we need to have an alternate so that when we're doing weekend dates or we're going to leave for a week, we have somebody ready to go. it also might mean, yeah, we need to pivot and we need to find a new member. That might be the case, depending on how serious everything's going. But if those conversations. Are had right away. It's less of a shock later on as things evolve because things don't stay static. People's lives are always changing. Somebody gets a new job that takes them to a new Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the biggest part of, and [00:20:00] that I pull out of what you said is like, have that conversation. Don't not talk about it. Like if someone is having a big life change or you're switching from, Oh, we're all in college and we live in the frat house together and we're just partying and playing music. And now, Oh, people have careers, people have families, people have whatever. Like for me as someone not doing this full time, like that's a very real thing. And you have to be respectful of everybody and what their time is and being able to adapt to that and be there for one another. Cause I mean, 13 arrows, we've been together for eight years, right? We try to have this conversation. What are we doing and why are we doing it? Like at least once a year, cause it's going to change. Like we were, I mean, I was what, I don't know, in my early twenties when it started and I am a very, very different person of almost 10 years later now. And my lifestyle. So I think too, and like, what is the music? You might change what kind of music you're doing or who's the main songwriter or what is the vibe you're going for. So I [00:21:00] think just having open dialogue, understanding expectations, having hard conversations is something you need to do or else that's when it can get, toxic or not good. If you don't want, if you don't talk about it, it's Stephen: going to better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the more that that open dialogue happens. as hard situations come up, they're just a little easier to handle because maybe you've already had a conversation and now you can actually say, well, things changed, you know, and we both understand that. And let's find a, let's find a solution to this, or let's find the, the best scenario for both of us in And it's, it's between band members as we've been discussing, but it's between. It's between band and producer is between band and, live sound engineer that's on the road with you or videographer or whatever, you know, it's expectations going into a huge project or even just a one off project. It's the same thing. what do we expect to get accomplished here? Are we taking this the same level of serious and, [00:22:00] you can't go wrong with that conversation. Yeah. So I think that kind of brings us to our third example here. So like we've talked about strategy, what is the plan of action? We've talked about the account management or setting expectations and making sure your team understands and everyone's on the same page and having conversations and open dialogue. Mike: And then you mentioned producer. So producer in my world is like that equates to project manager. It's very different than I know there's a music podcast of music producers, very different than an advertising producer. Stephen: little bit of part of what we do is manage projects. Oh yeah. Yeah. Mike: But getting to that role, which is the role I've fallen into in my career. And I think a big part of that just came from, especially in college at a design school, everybody's a designer and they want to be that role. And we're in a lot of group projects. And I was like, well, everyone's got a lot of cool ideas, but like. Nothing's [00:23:00] happening. we're not making progress and this is an assignment and we have a deadline and I just kind of am a big overthinker and planner. And I was like, we got to get shit done. And so I kind of just have always naturally fell into that role. And when I did get into video production, it was my very first kind of career starting point. My first executive producer I worked under was like the biggest thing you are the one who gets shit done. if that doesn't come naturally to you, that's not the right role for you. But it did for me. So I was very lucky that I fell into that. I think that's a big thing is how are you making progress and who's driving things forward. And I think a big part of that is. Not one person has to be doing this, but I think a big takeaway from that role is the way I kind of identify with that role is I was really into basketball as a kid, like in the nineties, like, you know, the Michael Jordan era and the Chicago bulls. And my very favorite basketball player was a guy named John Stockton and he was on the Utah jazz. And a lot of people might be more familiar with [00:24:00] Carl Malone because he's the guy who scored all the points. John Stockton was the assist man. That's how I see myself. And that's how I see a good producer and project manager is you recognize the skills within everyone in the group and you find ways to let that play to your advantage and everyone be at their best. So like, I don't care if I'm the one scoring the points, I just want the team to succeed. Having that mindset, I think for getting things done is very good versus trying to force people to do things in a way they aren't naturally wanting to do them or being a control freak. Like you have to, every person in your group is going to receive feedback differently and is going to contribute differently. And as some might not be as vocal as others. So you want to make space for that person. So I think the role that would be really great to everyone in the group to think about is like that mindset of. Thinking about others first. Stephen: Yeah, I would say that this is a role that somebody has to do or nothing [00:25:00] happens. it comes natural to some people and they usually, a lot of times are sort of the band leader a lot of times, but not always, you have to be, there has to be somebody that's putting together some sort of. do list, even if it's never wrote down, but like, you know, some sort of, Hey, these are the next steps to get us towards our goal. and somebody that's saying, and here's who I think should be taking responsibility for these things. Maybe it's that person's also saying, and I'll do all the work, but Because that happens a lot of times. Um, but there might be, Hey, you know, you're really good. I've, I've seen your Instagram. You're really great at, at photography or videography. I'm going to put you in charge of doing that for the band or hiring who needs to do it, or even being the person that says. I know we've talked that we want to do this on our own, but nobody here is good enough at it. Like we need to admit that to ourselves and we need to outsource this. That's also a project manager [00:26:00] of identifying strengths and weaknesses within yourself and the band of people around you. Who should be doing this and who should not be doing Mike: yeah, yeah, that is a great point. I think just figuring that out or starting to even at least think about it and talk about it is, is, is very important. Um, And I think the last thing that that person does is ultimately holding people accountable, you know, once things are delegated or split up in some way, Hey, we said we were going to do this. Let's do it. You know, somebody has to, has to be Yeah. What are the next steps and who, who specifically is doing it? Cause if you're in a larger band, a big group of people, it's like, yeah, we're going to order t shirts. Everyone is assuming someone else's ordering those t shirts. Like you gotta say, I'm the one ordering them or you are the one ordering them by next Friday Totally. A lot of things stay stagnant because no one bothers to step up and say, Nope, no more of like [00:27:00] saying, you know, assuming somebody else is going to do it. This is who's responsible. And if you don't get it done, we're going to have a conversation about it. you can have a band and never do any of this stuff and have a great time. Stephen: Well, we said at the beginning of the episode, if you want to get shit done, then you have to do these things. And it's so easy to see in tons of bands where it's like, yeah, we want to, all right, this is the year we're going to do social media. We're going to take it seriously and we're going to post all the time. Doesn't happen. Why? Because no one was actually in charge of it. There was never a system put in place saying this is when we're going to post and who's responsible for doing the creation, who's responsible for posting and so on. So it just doesn't happen. Mike: Yeah, I feel like two takeaways I could, I could maybe offer on that subject would be, I feel like 13 arrows had a pretty good example of, we were trying to get a little more serious about social media and we're very democratic. And so the first idea was, okay. We're going to post at least once a week, there's four guys in the band. You're [00:28:00] the first week of the month. You're the second week. You're the third that worked for a while. And then a lot of us started to fall off, except one guy, our drummer. So now our drummer pretty much does it all. He says he does. I hope he does. I believe he actually enjoys it. So that's very good. I don't think the rest of us really enjoyed it. So we didn't really stick with it. So that kind of weeded us out in a sense. And we found out, Oh, you're the best at this. You're staying on top of it. You like doing it. Like that can be our plan going forward. I, he probably would appreciate it if we all helped him a little more, but yeah. Stephen: know, I, I love that. I think that's a great way to go about certain things because in a band, there's a lot of tasks that people don't necessarily want to do. So the hope is, yeah, you find people that do want to do it. However, I've also seen this where, okay, the drummer's the best at doing it, but then somebody is like, But I think you should do it this way, Mike: Oh, Stephen: know, they don't want to do the work, but they want to, they want to criticize what's being done. And that's where I go, you know, [00:29:00] done is better than perfect. And if you're not willing to be the person to do it well, then you got to let it go. Mike: yeah, I agree. I think that's a really great point. And that, that can be a tough conversation to have too, because that can leak into all facets of the band. I think the most sensitive area, depending on the dynamic of your group is like when you're actually creating your artwork, there's a lot of emotion from everybody in that and it can be. It is delicate conversations to have, but I think that's where it gets hard. and another example from our band that I could share others might like is, um, this works well for us. We kind of have a tiered system of, I guess, the review approval process, if you will. Stephen: Let's get into that next with the other role, which I know is ultimately the creative Mike: Yes, that is very good. Yeah. Creative director. Let's talk about that and we can use this example too. But [00:30:00] [00:31:00] [00:32:00] Yeah. Creative director. Let's talk about that and we can use this example too. But Just to recap, I guess we've gone through strategy, like account and team management, project management itself, and then creative director, which is usually the role everyone I think wants, but not everybody is suited for it. And so it's good to figure that out with your team dynamic and in the professional world, from my career background, that's a very long road of experience to get to that title. And be the creative director of a team and in a band, you're probably going to want someone on like that on day one. And it might change who it is in the band over time and be open to that. But the role really is who is the person maintaining the vision and the North star? Like you've discussed it as a group. Everybody knows what it is, but you should have one, maybe two, but probably one dedicated person that's like, this is our North star. And I know it in my [00:33:00] heart and I am going to keep us in check that we're following that. So it's not like all of a sudden we're posting something or releasing something or creating something. That's like, what the heck? That's not, that's not Def Leppard. That's like, that's like a tool song or like people like you can do that. That is okay. People have done that. But I think if you're wandering aimlessly, you're not going to get anywhere. not saying that isn't an option, but if you really want to be efficient and make a biggest impact, you can, I think you really need that, that vision. Stephen: staying focused, especially early on helps you have define what you're doing and then have something that you can stand out with. Mike: Yeah. Stephen: A lot of people will, will push back against that of like, no, look at big artist a or big artist B and they change and they'll do something completely different. They can do that because they've already reached that. Exactly. They have more flexibility now because they already have a dedicated audience. When you're trying to build something and you're trying to stand out from the ocean [00:34:00] of other releases that came out that day, having something really clearly defined, Helps in that regard. So yes, a lot of times the creative director falls on like the lead singer, songwriter, or, you know, band leader of some sort, the person that's sort of running the rehearsals and, organizing most of. Of the creation part, but it's also the role of a producer. So the creative director sort of can change or end up collaborating. Once you like get into a studio, you hire, cause you know, the things that you outsource ultimately, then who you're outsourcing it to sort of becomes your creative director, whether that's the videographer you hire. The photographer you hire or the producer you hire. Now you have another person that's saying, okay, we had, we had our strategy meeting and we're aligned on what we're trying to do. And now you're ultimately trying to trust the person that you hired to do Mike: Oh, yeah. Trust is huge. And I think that that's the really big part of any successful team is you have your [00:35:00] people and you need to trust each other. And if you, if you're not like, you might need to have a conversations about finding different people, but once you've committed, like for example, working with the producer, if you've chosen that person and you've aligned on the brief, as we've said, and you've Don't get into the middle of the session and just like totally throw everything off the rails. Like if you, you found this person, you picked them because they do this type of work. They've maybe done it for someone else and you heard it. You need to trust that person to deliver their thing to you. And if next time you can try someone else, but, maybe a slightly more clear metaphor for me is like. really into tattoos. I have a lot of friends who are tattoo artists. I've become very close with them. And I feel like they're very good at setting that boundary. Like I do classic American style tattoos. Do not come to me and tell me to tattoo some. Like crazy new Neo pop design or something. Go to the guy who does that. Don't come to the rock [00:36:00] producer and say, dude, why can't you make my hip hop album? Awesome. Well, you probably should have gone to the hip hop guy for that. You can mix it up. I'm not saying it's cut and dry everything, but I think that's part of the expectation management too, is like, you need to let go at a certain point and trust the people around you. If you're a control freak, you're just going to, you're going to crash and burn at some Stephen: Yeah, I want to dive into that a little deeper. The whole like trust, collaboration, all that stuff, which is ultimately the wider role of just all your individual members of a creative team. The people that are making stuff, right? because I think that that's, Probably among the most interesting of, of this whole topic is like, how do you be a good collaborator with people? there are really toxic ways and there's really healthy ways.everything that we've talked about kind of ties into this, right? It does. There's already been a lot of things that overlap with this, but ultimately. when you're at practice and you got a bunch of people making [00:37:00] music together, you're constantly making decisions on, should we do this or should we do that? Is that idea good or is this idea good? So let's talk about how to be a good collaborator and how to make decisions as a group, as a creative team. Mike: Yeah, I think I did. I started to hint at this earlier and I'm glad that we're inserting it here. Cause I think it makes a lot more sense. And so one example I could start with would be sort of the system that I think has worked out pretty well for 13 arrows. Our, our rock band is, I think it's three or four. I'll work my way through the list and see where we end up. But if we're working on something and we're trying to make a decision, Number one, okay, there's four of us, so we're going to have a group vote. There's probably going to be three. It's going to be split. It's probably going to make a decision right there. If it's tied two on two, okay, we did not come to a decision here. The next tier would be, Does this relate to a specific instrument? Okay. We're talking about a drum part. The drummer gets more say [00:38:00] on the drum part than the guitar player does. gets to be a tiebreaker. Yeah, he can be a tiebreaker. And then from there, if we're still working through it, I think a third rule that works well is who started this thing, who had the initial nugget of this whole thing came from a guitar riff. So it's, it's kind of, it's kind of Eddie's song, our guitar player's song. So to speak, like it's not finished yet, but if someone brought the idea to the table for the rest of the team to ingest, like they are then given a little more weight. And then I think the fourth and my favorite, and probably the trump card of all is your partner. If we're in the studio working with a producer, That outside party, in my opinion, probably has the best opinion because they aren't going to be biased the way everyone else inside of the bubble is. And so I think that it goes back to the trust thing. And, I'm sure you know that better than I do. Stephen: it goes both ways. It goes both ways. I can think of multiple times in the studio where There's been disagreements [00:39:00] between band and producer or, or between, you know, half the band. And then I'm picking sides too. And everybody, you know, I do think that how you outlined that decision making is very common and it's a really great place to start. You can start by voting. You can move on to like, all right, well, whose part is it? Maybe they should have a bigger say. Yeah. And then you can, okay, well, it is their song. It was really their baby. Maybe they should have a little more say. And all right. What does our producer say? Great place to start, but it doesn't have to necessarily end there. I think that I can think of scenarios where there's been times that somebody throws out an idea. And there's immediately everybody's taking sides, but instead of going to, all right, let's see, who's got the better idea. you can go a little further than that and look for win wins. And what I mean by that is, all right, well, first let's fully audition idea. Number one, not just hypothetically, but let's really work it out. And see how we could make idea one, the best it can be. And now [00:40:00] let's go to idea two and do the same thing. And everybody has to stay open minded during the whole thing, no sabotaging or anything like that, because already what can happen is while everybody fully gets invested in how do we make idea one work, sometimes then it just works and everybody comes on board or same with the idea too. And then if neither of those things work, what I ask myself when I'm producing records and let's say the band is split on it and now I've tried out, like, how do I make version one work? Okay, there's still split. How do I make version two work? Okay, there's still split. What I ask myself then is, How do I make them both work? What are the best things that I like about idea one? And what are the best things I like about idea two? Cause they're usually not just so black and white. They're usually a little different in certain ways. So it's like, maybe I can take certain things about both ideas and make a new hybrid idea that will satisfy everyone. That's a win, win. That's a win, win, Mike: who doesn't love a hybrid? That's Stephen: Yeah, Mike: I love that. Stephen: the thing, the takeaway here is that it's a mindset. [00:41:00] You have to be listening. You have to keep an open mind and you have to be thinking, how do we find a solution? How do we find a win here versus how do I prove that my idea is better than their idea? Mike: I, I I'd love to talk more about that too. And I think that's like a great example of are you really listening to someone? Are you waiting for your turn to speak? There's a huge difference between that and waiting for your turn to speak is not a great practice. I think going back to the trusting everyone and, and, and. this might be incorrect. Someone can fact check me on the internet, but I love, um, Tedeschi trucks band Derek trucks. Great. Incredible. One of the best living guitar players. I'm pretty sure this was from an interview I heard with him, but he has some sort of list, I guess, eight like tips or rules to be a good band member and one of the most important ones that I remember, the only one I might remember from that list when I read it was that same idea of committing To an idea and being willing to follow. Cause if someone comes [00:42:00] up with an idea, it's very easy to be like, Oh, I know I don't like that. I'm going to shut that down. We're just going to skip it. It's like, just keep that to yourself. Let that person take the idea as far as they can until they're satisfied and then judge it. And then weigh in on it. But if you chime in too early, like you could ruin something that could be great. I've been proven wrong so many times where I'm like, Oh, I know what I like. The first five seconds I hear it, but then there's been plenty of songs that I'm like, I'm not going to like this. I don't think this is going to be a good song for us, but I'd shut up. I keep my mouth shut for a little bit. I let someone who's excited about something be excited. And then I go, Oh shit, I was wrong. This actually turned out awesome and I never would have thought to do it that way. Maybe that's why I didn't like it because I wasn't comfortable with something I haven't done before. Like you are going to find yourself proven wrong and happy about it. Hopefully. Stephen: I love that so much because I feel like that's real maturity in, in the creative practice and it's hard to find. but it's [00:43:00] something that everyone should aspire to, even if you end up being right, Stephen: that's not the point. The point is to create space because if you do that for members, and I think I'm thinking about this specifically, like in rehearsals, in the writing phase, in that like vulnerable spot where people are. half finished ideas. And it's like, we're trying to develop something. We're trying to write together. It is so important to leave a lot of space in those moments and not just voice your thoughts right away. Think about how you can be supportive to somebody rather than how you can fix something. And by doing that, ultimately you just create a better culture among your band where The next time you bring something half formed, hopefully the favors returned instead of it just getting shot down right away or, you know, distractions being pulled out of, you know, this sounds like this or, you know, that people can just can just say, let's work on this. Let's find a way to make that as good as it can. There are times where efficiency [00:44:00] matters. I would say like in the studio is one of those places where you might say that's heading in the wrong direction. Let's do this. Mike: Yeah. Stephen: But that's usually way further into the process. But sometimes even in the studio, I've had times where it's like somebody throws out an idea and I'm like, that's a little left field. You know, that's the first thing in my head. But I catch it. I just don't say anything. And then I'll go, how could I make it work? If I were to make this work, what would I do? And how could I do it fast to just test it out quick? And so many of those ideas end up being brilliant moments because somebody just threw out something random and I didn't shoot it down. I could have, and I would have been right to saying that, well, that's crazy. And that, you know, But following things can be exciting and where surprises happen. And sometimes you follow them and you go, that was not it. That was bad. And we all have a good laugh about it, but then the culture of it of like, no, we're still encouraging. It was okay to do that becomes really, really helpful. Now you can go too far where it's like, maybe you're just chasing too many ideas. And [00:45:00] at some point you got to say, no, no, no, we got to get something done. There is that balance, but that's why I mean, specifically in rehearsals, Be really careful. About you know, how you fix stuff, try to be supportive, give it enough space to get to the end of an idea and then just be honest. And that goes with how you help other people, but also about your own ideas. You might be really excited about something, present it, take it really far. You also have to be at the end of that willing to say, I don't even like this anymore. yeah, that can happen. And that's good to be honest with yourself and have that discovery. And I think that was a little bit of, maybe part of the impetus or inspiration for 13 arrows. I'll bend my main music project with my best friends for a very long time. And I think having this little side project of midnight horses, Has kind of taken a weight off where not everything's so precious anymore. Mike: It's like, every idea I bring doesn't have to come to fruition. And I'm like, Oh, like all my eggs are in one basket, right? [00:46:00] Like I can have some throwaway stuff and I can like sit back a little more and let other people do their thing. And I feel like that's a good way to just, you know, experience working with other people and other teams and learning new things and. Bringing that back to the other groups that you're in as well. Like just having some cross pollination and seeing how other people work and learning lessons that way. And just connecting with more people is, is great. And I think that that was kind of a big takeaway for me. It was like, Oh, I love writing songs and I'm writing a song every week almost or something when I'm feeling good. And, but not every single one of those is going to end up on Spotify. under this project or that project, it might just sit on my hard drive for infinity and that's okay. Like you don't have to force things and they don't have to all be so precious. Stephen: I love that you bring that up. In the early stages, it's so exciting and it's so amazing to see something come to life, a song, an idea. And it becomes very, very important [00:47:00] to you. but you have to remember that, especially if you're collaborating with other people, their ideas feel the same way, and there might only be space for one of them. And so ultimately, and I was actually just having this conversation with a long term client of mine that I've worked with for like nearly 10 years, I've done a bunch of projects he's got a side project. It's starting to become a bigger thing because the band is less available. There's families and kids and careers and all kinds of stuff. And, and I was just remarking that, like, having a side project is so healthy. It's so healthy it gives you a release valve, you know, that, Hey, If you're doing all the things we said where you're trying to support other people, you're trying to stay open minded, you might find that some of the things that you're writing don't fit the project that you're in. Mike: Yeah, totally. Stephen: really frustrating if it doesn't have anywhere else to go, because you could be so excited about this new thing, but also agree that, yeah, and it doesn't really make sense. We'd have to either change directions and maybe sometimes that's the case, but, or it just needs another outlet. And the fact of the [00:48:00] matter is that it's so easy to capture ideas and to self produce at home these days that there's not a really good, good excuse not to. Why not? If something doesn't perfectly fit one project, keep it and do a side Mike: yeah, definitely. And it's a fun learning experience too, like I think that's another part I've taken a little bit from my like marketing career into the band world is like, in my job, I'm working with photographers, videographers, people who are experts in social media, people who build websites for a living people that every single thing you have to do in a band. If you want people to discover you, I know how to speak their language a little bit. I'm not an expert in social media. I'm not going to be the guy behind the video or photocamera, Because I've worked with them, I know how to at least get started or how to vet something or say, Oh, is this worth it? Or if I'm going to hire a video editor, like how can I work with them or what to expect with them? And I think just having more exposure to more [00:49:00] people and more roles and how they do their thing, is invaluable. And then starting to learn a little bit through my side project of Midnight Horses, how to record a little bit at home. Then when I go in the studio with a real professional producer who works in the studio, I can speak their language a little more and we can get things that are in our heads out into the world a little more. Yeah. Stephen: Yeah. And I think you're touching on two of like working with other people and how you learn from them is such an important part of being a good collaborator.if you've only ever been in one band, Mike: Yeah. Stephen: been. healthy with their ways of collaborating. But I can say for sure that the more I've collaborated with different artists and the more I've given myself other types of projects and different things, it's been so great because it's that variety that you see different creative processes. You see different communication styles. And every time you collaborate with somebody new, whether it's [00:50:00] a different instrumentalist, a different songwriter, a different producer, can certainly learn something that you take away of like, I like this process. I like the way that we communicated here. And you just start finding communication styles, creative styles, and then like different chemistries among people. And this ties back to a little bit of what we were talking about earlier. I think with the account assembling your team, you know, some people might be listening to this episode and go like, all this sounds great. It'll never work in my band, you know, like We just don't have that dynamic. Well, it might be time to find a different band. That's the reality of it. And that's what collaborating with different people can tell you a little bit of like, Oh, I didn't know it could be this easy. Oh, I didn't know it could be this fun. Oh, I didn't know that this would connect in a way that it's never worked before. And part of that is you just need a broad range of experiences so that you can appreciate Perhaps what you already have or figure out that, Oh, I [00:51:00] do need to be more careful about. My team. A lot of people just pick it. You know, when you think about how you picked your band, it's like, well, I went to school with that person. I grew up with that person. I lived with that person. It's a lot of times just who's in your Mike: Yeah, totally. Especially if you're not living in a big population. Like if you're in a group, in a small town, you might only get one bass player and then you got to drive 30 miles for a drummer or something. Stephen: Especially then. Yes. But even for everybody that's in the twin cities right now, if you think about like, well, did we audition the best version of this? No, probably not. You probably took that. Yeah, this was my buddy. Here's my buddy's friend or whatever. And that's how the band came together. Nothing wrong with that. But ask yourself then if, if you're frustrated with some of those things, it might be a, a, a team member issue, you know, where you need to think about, Hmm. It doesn't mean I'm not suggesting like, go break up your band right now. But I am suggesting that if you feel like that's part of the problem, then start another project. Mike: yeah. And [00:52:00] there's, there's no harm in that. And I think everyone in any group should be able to respect someone else, you know, doing that. And, Yeah. It might feel, I kind of think about the same way with like a job. Like I remember the first time I had like a career job and then I was like, I hate this job and I need to quit. My life is over. I'm never going to find another job. This is going to be terrible. What am I doing? Like I'm going to be living on the streets and broke. And then it was like, found a different job. I'm like, yeah, this one's way better and my life isn't over and I'm probably going to end up working at a different place again to someday. Like it's going to, it's all going to be okay. It's not the end of the Stephen: Yeah. And the other thing that can happen is, yeah, I switched jobs and some of the same problems exist Mike: Yeah. and Stephen: I need to be okay. I need to figure out how to deal with those things. Like, maybe I need to learn how to communicate better, or maybe I need to fix what's going on in the collaboration process. But the point is, is that the more you have, A variety of experiences. The more you can understand that Mike: Yeah. Most definitely. Stephen: Okay. We've covered sort of [00:53:00] collaborate, best collaboration practices. I think that kind of wraps up our, our creative team conversation and ultimately probably the, the wider conversation for this topic. Let's do a little recap and see if we forgot anything. Mike: Yeah. just recapping like the metaphor of roles within the marketing world. It's like. Starting with strategy is just as, you know, let's establish what is this? What are we trying to accomplish? What are the objectives? Just get everyone on the same page. And then I think in addition to that, alongside that as this kind of account management, relationship management role, which really piggybacks off of that, of like, we should be constantly and consistently checking in and understanding and level setting of expectations. it's not just like a one and done conversation. And then jumping into project management, producer, you know, getting shit done. really allowing everyone in the team to be the best version of themselves and contribute and the best [00:54:00] that they can. And then lastly, you know, the creative director, like what is the North star? And are we maintaining that and like sticking to our vision? I think those are kind of the four, high level points. Stephen: And then obviously just the, the day to day contributions of everybody on the team, on the creative role of making stuff and all of the. all the ways to be a positive member, in a collaborative process. Yeah. Mike: Totally. Stephen: This is great. This is such a good conversation. I think it's helpful. Thank you so much for doing this and for being here. I, I love that we did this. I think that these are real things that happen all the time for people and it's, it can be tough to figure it all out. So, you know, one thing I've been asking everybody at, the end of all the podcasts and you've listened to them. So, you know, this is coming. as you've looked at your own musical career, and the time that you've spent with these other projects, what has been one secret that you would like to share with everyone else from the scene? Mike: Yeah, I think one secret that really just kind [00:55:00] of culminates the conversation today of my metaphor, an example, drawing lines from my marketing job to being in a band and working in a creative team is I had personally for a very long time struggled with, did I make the wrong choice and pursuing this professional career and not, you know, Making a leap of faith into the world of music. And I've definitely become more comfortable with that now. And I'm very happy with everything working out the way it did. But I think the secret is just that don't ever feel like you're behind other people. I think it's very easy to play the game of comparing yourself to others. And Oh, what if I did that? Or what if I did this? Like. I don't think I could have ever been as successful as I am right now in music without all of my experiences outside of it. And so if you're managing a coffee shop, you're going to be a lot better at managing your group of people in the band. Don't think that like, I'm not good enough or I'm not doing what someone else is doing. And so [00:56:00] therefore I'm failing. Like every experience you're having is going to have an impact and an influence on your artwork in a positive way. If you are going to let it. Stephen: that's great advice. Yeah, I think that's so true, on every level there's nothing to be gained from the other side of that, you know, of playing the comparison game or thinking what if just embrace where you are and keep moving. Mike: Yeah, just keep doing it. I think that was a big thing for me too. There was a period of time where I was not doing music for a couple of years. And I was very depressed. I couldn't go to a concert and enjoy myself because I'd be like, that's what I should be doing right now. So in whatever capacity you can, if you're just at home making little demos by yourself, like you're doing it, you are doing it. And if you feel satisfied, don't worry about all the other shit. Stephen: Agreed, 100 percent agreed. Well, if people want to reach out and follow you or your bands, your different projects, how do they get in touch or where should they go? Mike: I would say Instagram's probably the main platforms for both [00:57:00] projects. So if you want to follow 13 arrows, rock and midnight horses, music on Instagram. and I don't know, I could maybe provide you for footer notes, like a contact to me if anyone has questions about how to get shit done, or if you want to see my absolutely insane version of a to do list and how I organize that. I would gladly share my templates with you Stephen: I'd actually be interested in seeing those. Yeah, definitely send those and I'll include them in the show notes. Mike, thank you so much for being here. I really, really appreciate it. This has been great. Let's connect again. for everybody that's listening, if you found this episode helpful, please let us know. I'm always looking for more ideas and more feedback on what works and what doesn't. If you have other guests in mind, other topics in mind, just reach out. My email is also in the show notes, or you can send me a DM. if this was a great episode for you, consider liking, subscribing, definitely share it with somebody. you know, this is for, this is to help the Twin Cities music scene. So if you found it helpful, then share it with a friend. I'd appreciate that. And if you made it this far, [00:58:00] thanks for listening. Thank you for watching until next time.