Ep. 35: Unique Challenges Facing Women in Music with Maria Coyne, Laura Hugo, & Faith Boblett

Maria and Stephen (Gated): Welcome to Secrets from the Scene. My name is Stephen Helvig and I'm your host. Today's episode is going to be a different one. It'll be very interesting where instead of having one guest, I have three, which is great. I'm really feel really fortunate to have my good friend, Maria Coyne, who helped me put together this episode, who invited Faith Boblett and Laura Hugo as well. And together, we're going to have a conversation about the unique challenges of being a woman. In music, specifically our scene, of [00:01:00] course, but I think this is going to translate to pretty much everywhere. you know, Marie and I had some sort of tangential conversation about this that got the idea flowing and we thought let's make this a podcast episode and have the full conversation because it's an important conversation to have. and already just a little bit that we dabbled into it. Pre episode, it was clear that this is going to get to be really, really interesting and, and powerful, I think. So the goal here is for us is simply to have the conversation and just be honest about what it's like. and you know, for myself, just to probably take it in and, and keep things moving conversationally. And for you guys to share actual experiences, you know, hopefully this doesn't come off as being, you know, preachy or like we're trying to solve these complex problems. We know that that's not necessarily the case, but the hope is to shed some light on what's really, what it's really like, and to hopefully, offer relatable experiences for some of you listeners [00:02:00] and maybe a couple ideas for how to make some improvements along the way. So I hope everybody's listening, keeps an open mind and knows that we're all just trying to make the scene better for everybody because we all love it. We've all been artists in it and, there's always room for improvement. So with that being said, I'm going to let guests do a little bit of an intro for themselves. So it's not me. Just. Talking for the first 10 minutes, why don't you take it away? All right. I'm Maria coin. Um, I'm a singer songwriter in the scene. I've been in Minneapolis, almost 10 years. and I front the band Maria and the coins. it's been a real pleasure to just have this opportunity. Thank you for creating this opportunity to have a discussion. Like you said, it's like, it's less about solving something and more about bringing something to light and just. You know, starting a conversation because I think oftentimes, that's all we can do sometimes. So, thanks for, for having us. Yeah. Faith and Laura: Boblett. I'm a singer songwriter. Thanks for inviting me to be a part of this. I have a band. We play out. [00:03:00] I have a little side project called. She's all that keep an eye out covers. It's really fun. and I may be a new dental hygienist. So I've been playing in the twin cities for Oh, God, 14 years. which is crazy. and yeah, so anyway, I'm excited to share some experiences with you guys. I'm excited to hear from you. I'm Laura Hugo. I am originally from Arizona, from the Navajo nation, and I've been in Minnesota for 14 years and I've been playing around the twin cities for maybe a decade. And. I feel old and that's okay cause I'm not. but yeah, I'm happy to be here. I'm honored. I can't wait to kind of get into it and see where we, where we go. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. Thank you all for doing this. I think this will be a really great conversation. So let's start by talking about what these unique challenges are. Faith and Laura: I think the keyword is unique because every single person is so different and we all have, [00:04:00] upbringings, unique socioeconomic statuses, like access to music education or lack of. and so just coming up in the scene from different places, every single person, whether you're a man or a woman, or it just, it's just so. Everything is different for everybody, but we should do share challenges as women. And so there's so many different alleys that we can go down, but I just wanted to say, it's just so individual. So as much as we'll highlight things that we think people can really relate to. It's yeah. We're all humans. Yeah. We're all humans. Exactly. Yeah. You said. Yeah. So anyway, this is just our experience. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you can relate. Yeah, hopefully not too much because some of it's bad. I mean, hopefully you don't feel alone in it. Yes, exactly. More so. Yes. Yes. Maria and Stephen (Gated): I think one of the, one of the first things when we just kind of started chatting was, obviously conversation about just like underrepresentation of like women in the music scene, you [00:05:00] know, seeing women on bills in leadership roles in the industry, like producing and booking and stuff like that. and how that maybe affects our ability to, Even enter the scene in general, or feel confident to begin the journey and stuff. And just not seeing, ourselves in those roles initially when we're much younger and stuff. and we've talked a lot about safety too. So I could start with either of those Faith and Laura: Yeah, I think what comes to mind for me is when I first started playing with a band in the twin cities and kind of was forming that it was men. and. A lot of that experience wasn't wonderful, to be honest. Like I remember bringing my songs to the band and having them just like totally ripped apart and. Like rearranged and I'm all for collaboration and learning. And like, sometimes you do have to break something down and put it back together to make it be wonderful. but it affected me from like the age of 18 or 19. I'm 33 now. I still think about it with my current [00:06:00] band when I bring them songs and they're very supportive and wonderful, but it's just one of the ways that it was like shaping for me as like a naive green. Girl, really with, you know, trying to meander through the scene and still somehow being like bright eyed and bushy tailed and having all the hope in the world. And I remember sharing bills with people that were in their thirties when I was that age. I'm like, Oh my God, they're so jaded. That will never be me. that was just even more naive of me to think, but yeah, I don't know. Just I don't know, jumping off point, how impactful that can be. If the experience isn't positive.yeah, it shapes you obviously. Absolutely. I remember when I, I moved here, I was just happy to be here. I was just happy to have an opportunity to play anything, do anything. I was very shy, started going to open mics and I just. I had the mentality of like, I don't really know anything. I didn't have any self esteem. I didn't have any confidence. I was just happy to be here. I wanted to learn. I went to [00:07:00] McNally for a little bit. That was an interesting experience. but that's the thing though, is I, when it came to my first experience collaborating with somebody, it wasn't a collaboration. It was, I know better than you. And I believed it. So I, then, you know, now I, I'm scared to collaborate. I haven't in a long time and, it's kind of like a private thing for me to write and create things. And, do you feel like there's this pressure to have it perfect by the time you bring it to your band? Like I think whatever I contribute reflects, on my talent, my ability. Maria and Stephen (Gated): of that worth element. Faith and Laura: worth, Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. Faith and Laura: especially my worth. And, one thing I will say that helped me a lot was I started going to Plum's Open Mic was the first one that I went to. Shout out to Hensley. He does wonderful things. So does JT, over at Social Ciderworks every Monday. but he was the first one who told me, you tell me what you want and you have to tell people what you want when it comes to, this is [00:08:00] you, this is you setting yourself up for what you're comfortable with on stage because they still have terrible, terrible stage fright, but that was the first time I was like, Oh, it's up to me. This is me. I get to decide. That doesn't make me a diva. That doesn't make me selfish. That doesn't make Maria and Stephen (Gated): Asking for what you need is Faith and Laura: Exactly. It's like I, you will have a better performance from me if I'm comfortable and here are the things that I need to be comfortable. And that's still hard because in the beginning, when I didn't know anything about sound, when I didn't know anything about anything, really I'd come into a gig, as this bright eyed, bushy tailed, like optimistic, like whatever happens, however people treat me, I'm just happy to be here. Happy to have the opportunity. And it was like, unfortunately the only comparison I can think of like back in the day would be like a young female walking into guitar center Maria and Stephen (Gated): Oh Faith and Laura: kind of vibes. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Or like yesterday. Faith and Laura: [00:09:00] But yeah, yeah, it still to this, now I'm just, I put on my grumpy face and no one like bothers me unless I ask, because here's the thing, I am very good at asking for help when it comes to these things. I'm very good at asking questions. If I want your help, I'll ask for it. And I've had shows where an audience member has seen me there shows where I've had to set up the sound system, which wasn't super complicated. and I knew how to do it and I, you know, had. been doing it for a while and an audience member was like, you need some help with that sweetheart and just sat there the whole time I was setting up, pointing at things, telling me what to do. And finally I turned around and this is the first time I feel like I had any confidence. I was like, well, do you want to do it then? And he was like, no, I was just like, come on, you can, you can, I would love for you to do it. You do it. I'll go grab a beer. That'd be great. Like, yeah, I did. And he did, he went up there and he's, and he got confused. And then he was like, he didn't say he was sorry. He was just like, you, you're, yeah, you did it right. Good job Maria and Stephen (Gated): Well, it's like the audacity of, and I [00:10:00] think the assumption that we know less and it puts us in a position to then, when I need to ask a question, not feeling like I can because I'm trying to already be. I know everything because I know the assumptions that I know nothing when I walk into this, you know, situation and that dynamic that's established of just like, Oh, let me tell you. And like, I totally identify with what you're talking about with like monitor mixes. Like I feel like a lot of being a woman in the industry can be like condensed into the, this metaphor of like asking for what you need in a monitor mix took me. And like, I still struggle with like, Ooh, I've already asked for two variations of, I need more vocals. Does that make me sound selfish? No, I'm the lead singer. I need to hear the vocals in the monitor mix. Like, and, and getting to a point where I felt yeah, comfortable enough asking because I realized that it was like the only person that really loses here when I don't speak up is myself. I don't perform [00:11:00] as well. I don't bring the show. Faith and Laura: feel crappy afterwards. I don't Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. And getting to a point where, you know, you feel confident and stuff. And then also having those experiences that are positive with collaboration or with other people. I mean, I certainly felt that of like, I need to bring something to my band. That's like perfect and ready to go that they're going to be impressed by. And. I feel very lucky to work with a band that's like, Hey, let's collaborate and stuff. But that really builds me up and stuff. And I know that I am in a unique situation to, to have had that from, from a, from a starting point with my band and stuff. And I'm really grateful for that because that's not often the situation. I remember going into, the first like band thing I ever did was like in college cause I was like a theater kid all growing up and stuff. And the first time I was really like in a band was in college and going to this like, mixer of like, Musicians on campus and stuff, but like in the band scene and like looking around and realizing I was literally the only woman in the room of like [00:12:00] 45 people and being like, this isn't a coincidence. This is like something that we've almost been conditioned maybe away from doing of entering the scene and getting involved in this way and stuff. And because I'm the only one of me, I feel like I'm just like this like bright, shiny cotton candy thing that's like popping around. And I really struggled with like, can I still be myself in this scene? Because I feel like I have, I almost have to like play it cool and act like I know what I'm doing and stuff and, and not get what I need Faith and Laura: Yeah, God forbid you show up at a gig and have a question. It's as if we have to be a fully formed and realized human being who has no flaws and has all of the knowledge in the world to prove ourselves to, to, you know, and these are things that happen consistently. Like these things aren't being made up. It's Maria and Stephen (Gated): every industry Faith and Laura: every industry, you know, and I'm sure at the time you were probably like, wow, this is interesting, but I'm sure it wasn't abnormal, you Maria and Stephen (Gated): right? [00:13:00] Yeah, I feel like a common thread is that there's always these double standards. Like it's just constantly like you don't know what you're talking about, but then if you do and you demand something, then it's a diva, right? It's like always somewhere between this threading a needle of having it to be perfect And then I also think that there is a tendency for women to feel. a little bit more like a people pleaser in general. you know, for whatever reason, I don't know, but I feel like that happens more often and where women will try to be the peacemaker in, in situations. I think that's because we've been kind of conditioned by Chicago thing. Yes. Faith and Laura: And, and again, coming from all kinds of different places and backgrounds, there's trauma, there's, you know, all of the things that are already embedded in you as a human being that you kind of further that and kind of have to extra mass because you want to be polite. Wanna be. You don't, yeah. You don't wanna be the diva. You don't wanna Yes. Have a reputation as, oh, she's really hard to work with. Yes. Or, [00:14:00] you know, anything like Maria and Stephen (Gated): But at the same time, there's obviously everybody's starting at different places. Like it's okay to ask questions. It's okay. To get your monitor mix, right? All these things. So I think a lot of it, it's like. Yeah, I don't know what the answer to any of that is outside of just do what you have to do and continue that because more and more women do keep entering the scene. More and more women will be in these positions over time. And I think the more that that happens, the more it just gets normalized and becomes easier. And I think the more that we just, I just, anytime I have a conversation with another woman in the scene, there's just this shared experience of like, Once I hear from somebody else that they're like, yeah, I really struggled to like, find my voice with like getting the monitor mix. Right. I'm like, you know what? I'm a little more empowered to like speak up in that way and stuff. And so just simply sharing the experiences, sometimes a way for me to feel empowered to like find the answer to it too. Yeah. The Faith and Laura: that comes from it. Mm-Hmm. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah, [00:15:00] absolutely. Faith and Laura: yeah. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Let's talk about ageism. Faith and Laura: God. So sorry. Maria and Stephen (Gated): All of us being like, hi, we're in our thirties Faith and Laura: Yeah, literally. No someone, Oh, you're 33. Wow. You look really good for 33. I'm like, I haven't heard that yet. The fuck, the fuck does that mean? That's insane. Who says that? I know. And it's always, well, no, it's not always a dude. I lied. but yeah, it is weird. Cause then you feel suddenly like, Oh, I should have been at a different level in my career by now. And I think about it all the time. Should I just hang it up? Who cares what I have to say? what songs am I writing that are making some difference in the world? It sucks. And then we're, and here we are like, I think about like Charlie Parr and like Jason Isbell and all these dudes, they're not in their twenties and people, I'd fully love them. Yeah. And that's not to say that there are not women that are older making wonderful music that people love. It just doesn't feel as normalized. And it feels like there's like a [00:16:00] expiration date or like a shelf life in a way. Like I'm like, didn't get it done by the time I was whatever age. Yeah. Maria and Stephen (Gated): I think looks are just put on women in the industry. Just it's, it's more important. There are plenty of, you know, people that might not be traditionally attractive, they're male artists that are, you know, playing stadiums and stuff, and it's like, I can't say the same for a lot of female artists. Like, there is just this pressure of like, is it sexy enough? Is it young enough? Is it beautiful enough? Can you be all of these things and still write songs that change the world? and it's like, we feel it at every level. It's like, obviously the biggest celebrities in the world, they deal with it and down to this level of, and also sometimes, you know, How your looks also impact being taken seriously too. Like there is this weird thing of like, if you look this great, you obviously don't know what you're doing either. Like, what is that? Faith and Laura: is that? Yeah. Yeah. I remember. [00:17:00] That was one of my biggest fears in my 20s when I started playing around town and was kind of getting more courage and confidence to perform and I was thinking I have to I gotta hurry this thing up because when I'm 30, like I genuinely believed I would be irrelevant and nobody would want, and it sounds insane now, but at the time it was a very real fear and I was like, I don't want to be irrelevant. Like I was kind of freaking out all the time. And then honestly, now as also a 33 year old Pisces, by the way, I'm grateful that I was not, I, you know, I'm happy to be where I am at my age. Cause I've learned a lot and I'm at an age where I'm finally doing this mostly just to make me happy. And if people can get down with that and, and, participate in the spaces created at shows and stuff like that's way more satisfying than I I'm a plus size woman. Like I'm not. shape that a lot of [00:18:00] popular musicians are, like females especially. females, I don't like that word. Women especially. and I, I, as already having not a lot of, Confidence and being insecure and self conscious. That was always such a huge thing because I would play bills with people who were, the pretty that I wanted to be growing up, you know, and I'd sit there and I'd be like, well, am I worthy? Am I as worthy as this person, you know? And now, you know, I still struggle with that, but being in my thirties and doing music, I, I didn't think I would be like. This excited about it. I love to hear that you're so excited about it. You're so talented. Now I'm like, Oh my God, 40, 40 is approaching. I do say it. I say only seven years. Yeah. It's coming. But ultimately it sounds crazy and it sounds made up, but it's a real fear that people have and continue to have. Yeah. Maria and Stephen (Gated): old, right? Like it Faith and Laura: I wanted to be discovered when I was, you know, young [00:19:00] and out of high school and I'd have a whole career and I'd have all these albums and I will have gone on all of these tours. And, and then you get to a point where you're like, I haven't done me. I haven't done any of those things. Like I don't have an album yet for many reasons. I haven't gone on a tour yet. I am not where I thought I wanted to be in my music career, but yeah, it's like, you know, I'm fine. Right. I, I can still do those things. It's not like I've lost the ability to perform and write and get in a car, like it's still Maria and Stephen (Gated): that the world would promote that narrative more often that every year that goes by, I have the dual thought process of, Oh my gosh, am I getting, is my window closing and I also go, wow, I feel so much more comfortable in who I am and what I'm making and what I'm putting out in the world. And I find more community every year that goes by that I'm a part of the scene and things like that. And I wish that, um.That those, those could like co Faith and Laura: That they [00:20:00] weren't kind of on opposite ends of the seesaw, right? Like it's like the more experience you get, the more comfortable you are, the less you're worried about this made up window closing. Like what window? Maria and Stephen (Gated): Well, and I think to the sort of the classic, like, can women have it all? you know, thing that we've been fed our whole lives. One of the things that really inspires me about the Twin Cities scene is how many moms I see in this scene gigging and doing the thing and how much it inspires me to see people pursuing their dreams. In particular, women pursuing their dreams, and doing the having it all thing. And maybe they still have a day job. Maybe they just perform. Maybe they, you know, whatever the combination of things is in their life. But I always find that so inspiring that, because I was told, I feel like just by listening to you. Media and all of these things as I was growing up that it was like, yeah, you're going to have your career and then you can be a mom later, or then you can, you know, do that thing. But it's like, you better do it. You better do the career before anything else. Faith and Laura: Yeah, they're [00:21:00] all windows, all windows Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. And I just think seeing more, a more human side of like what this life looks like as a gigging musician and stuff. I think his Faith and Laura: Music really is supposed to be about, is the music. And, I'm not the whole package, you know, it's not about what I look like. It's about what I'm creating and what I'm sharing and the experience we're all having with our audiences and with our bands and with ourselves. And it just sucks. It takes away from that. Oh, I hesitate to say this, but I did have, somebody say to me one time, a man he said, oftentimes the most talented musicians aren't the most attractive. And I don't know if that was directed at me, but I felt like it was. And I was just like distraught. And that was just a comment. Who knows? I don't know. But it definitely still stays with me. God, that pisses me off to no end. But I, I mean, I don't, I didn't know how to take it. And initially I was young, so I took it to heart, but now, God, I don't know. I [00:22:00] can't. Music is music, man. You know, thoughtlessness that. Yeah, the expectation that we have it all together and that we do it all by a certain time and then, but we're also so selfless and, and gracious and grateful, but then someone can say shit like that to us and then they don't think twice about it and maybe that space and maybe they didn't mean it like that, but, but just like, think about it because we are raised, you know, in, in this society, in this patriarchal society, you know, To nurture, to care, to blah, blah, blah, all this stuff mixed in, like you said earlier, there's trauma, there's certain things that impact us individually, but then we're worried about being divas. And I had a really fun conversation with Siri Unlin of Humberd. I love Siri. we went to perp bitch together, not to brag, but we were talking about Someone in the scene, a woman, and I was having some kind of gripe in my brain. I was like, I don't know, I'm getting diva energy and I don't like it. And she helped me reframe it. She's like, [00:23:00] for sure. Maybe, maybe. And that is maybe broadening the spectrum in a way for us to ask for what we need. And it's not so diva y and like, yeah, Maria and Stephen (Gated): Like, recognizing it in ourselves, like, our perception of what might be diva, because we're so worried about Yes. Yes. starting to view that as like, yes, she's being assertive. Faith and Laura: Like, that's beautiful. These are perfectly reasonable requests Yes. For literally setting a show up or, Mm-Hmm. you know, fine tuning everything. This is part of it. Mm-Hmm. and I've, I've gotten, I've been doing this for 20 years and blah, blah, blah kind of situations. And fortunately I don't really run into that anymore. 'cause. I'm just like, do this. I don't care, but I'm polite. You know, I'm like, Hey, could you please but it's hard. It's hard to know. Like if you're being rude and disrespectful and, and just plain, you know, diva, like the definition of diva, that's one thing, but it's like, where's that line for [00:24:00] you right now? How do I not cross that line so that we can have a good relationship moving forward? Cause I want to come back here Maria and Stephen (Gated): Well, there's also a real imbalance of power in any performing arts industry. I've seen this even with my sister, who's an actor, you know, it's like, you're the actor. The casting agent is the yes or no, right? They're the make it or break it for your career. Right? And so you're like, I'm willing to do anything to like, be like, yeah, no, I'm going to be great to work with and all this stuff. And cause they kind of hold your faith. your fate in their hands and stuff. And I feel like in the music industry, and especially on a local level to when everybody's trying to build their brand, they're trying to build their careers, their build, their network, or their team, the imbalance of like, Oh yeah, I'll do that gig for free because I really want this person to like me so that they give me another opportunity and stuff. And of course that's, that goes for any artists, however they identify. But, I think for women, we're that much more conditioned. To do that, like people pleasing thing. And, and then I I'm always [00:25:00] have to be reminded to like, ask, well, like, why don't you just see if they would pay for, you know, or they would and like. choosing to say no, if not, and, Not being so worried about like how it's going to affect my, you know, reputation in the scene or, you know, whatever it is, because there is an imbalance of power when it's like, yeah, there are only so many bookers, producers, studios, you know, teams, all of these things and trying to, trying to play that game and also do what you need for yourself. Faith and Laura: Especially starting out. I think, I think a lot of the things that I'm reflecting on are when I, you know, was first starting out because we were saying earlier, if we had heard these experiences as women upcoming in the, in the industry would be like, Oh my God. Okay. I'm not crazy then. Like this isn't just me. experience. but yeah, a lot of that is just for exposure. I'm just getting started. Like I need to get in with anybody that I can and network as much as I [00:26:00] can. And I will do all these shows for free. And then suddenly most of the shows you're doing are for free. Yep. You know, it's insane. Yeah. And it's kind of, I think like when I first started playing with a band, it was like about cutting my teeth. Like I was like, sure, I'll take a Wednesday at 11 30 PM. And like, it wasn't that it was like zero dollars, but who's coming out to a show on Wednesday at 11 30? probably not that many people, but, but yeah, it gets to a point where. The confidence builds your. You know, your worth, you know, okay. I can tell this festival. No, I'm not bringing my band four hours away for 200 or whatever. And yeah, but It's Maria and Stephen (Gated): And some of those are industry problems, too, like industry wide, right, for everybody, and I think trying to find the balance of, like, What am I preconditioned to just like not ask for and stuff and just simply like hearing somebody be like, and so I said no to it and that's okay. And I survived. It's like inspiring. Right. It's like, Faith and Laura: It's like, you can Maria and Stephen (Gated): I can say no. Maybe I can ask for more vocal in my mix, you know? [00:27:00] Or maybe I can negotiate. Yeah. Oh, the power of negotiating. Yeah. Maybe it's okay to, to start negotiating and. and using some leverage of like, well, I've got to draw and I can ask for more money and that sort of thing. Absolutely. And I do think that, a lot of what we're going to talk about today isn't necessarily exclusive to women. Like these are issues that everybody can deal with. I just think that because of some of the societal things, it can be more difficult for women. and I, because of the double standard thing. Cause sometimes I think that there's, it's a two way street to some extent, like where women just have to start asking and taking a stand so that men will go, Oh, okay. I guess that's how it is, you know? Cause I, I've even like, because you know, obviously not, not all men are trying to, you know, be problem of any sort. Like I can think of a time where I've had a really young artist in, she was doing. you know, I think probably a first recordings like first songs ever. So there's, there's stuff that I'm like, yeah, we can, we can probably make this [00:28:00] better and fix this up, you know, and I am a producer. So that's what I do. I'm generally hired to help fix songs. And I would do a couple like, well, if you considered this, like, this is a little strange, we could do this. And she was just like, nah, don't like it. I was like, oh, okay. And then I was like, well, we'll move on. And I'd throw out another idea. And she. No, mine's better. I'm like, okay. Faith and Laura: I know. Maria and Stephen (Gated): I'm like, I'm kind of disagree, but, but here's the thing. She was very clear. And ultimately I was like, okay, she just really wants to do her songs exactly the way they are. She's not really interested in production. And I'm just kind of like, Fine. You know, I, I don't know if I would recommend it necessarily, but it's like, but it's her choice ultimately. And she has the courage to just like speak up too. Yeah. And so it's like, at that point I go, well, you know, this is what she wants. So this is what we're going to do. And then, you know, I can reframe and go, all right, well, this is how I can help you get to what you want to do. But. in my [00:29:00] defense, that's what I'm supposed to do is try to offer suggestions to make things better. So I think men can sometimes feel like, well, do you want help or do you not want help? And there's an element of like, we have to communicate, we have to be very clear. And the more that I think women can. Say I'd rather be a diva than a people pleaser. Then change will, you know, occur too. I think too, it's like the role that like a producer is in very different than like the role that the Booker, the sound guys in where it's like, you're there to be part of the collaboration. And it's like, sometimes when it's like the first time, like we opened for like a big artist, They had the thing where it was like, yep, they're using their own sound thing. So we're using venue sound. They had asked me if I would like to use my own mic. And I said, I really don't care. Like, and they were like, let's use yours. And I was like, okay. And then we finished our set, we get off the stage and the guy proceeds to like, and it's like, we've just finished our set. I need to go sell merchandise. the guy proceeds to tell me [00:30:00] for 10 minutes why that wasn't the right mic to use and how I should have, you know, done all this stuff. And it was. Him who was like, we're using your mic and it was his job to run sound. Right. And I just remember thinking in that moment, wow, I have I would say I've been lucky in the industry so far to have worked with a lot of fantastic people and like, had good experience and stuff. And that was one of those times where I was like, this is somebody who is just like speaking down to me and I'm letting him to, like, I didn't, I didn't speak up cause I was like. I want to go sell merch. I want to get out of this conversation so I can go do my job still. and so, so sort of that difference too of like, yeah, like we need to communicate, we need to speak up on our behalves and stuff. And then it's like, sometimes being like, when is the time to be like, yeah, Faith and Laura: You're like, this is, cause sometimes it is like, you know what, no matter what I say to you, no matter how I frame it, it's not, I'm not going to change your mind. Maria and Stephen (Gated): it's not our job to to like educate, you know? Faith and Laura: to babysit your [00:31:00] feelings Maria and Stephen (Gated): Totally. Faith and Laura: during this very professional thing that we can have fun or you can be weird. And I, I remember. I like that. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You can have fun or you can be weird. You can, you can be professional. You can be weird. I want that on a t shirt. That's That's Laura Hugo merch Oh soon. Mm. remember when I, again, was first starting out, the name that I went by was just call me Hugo and it was all squished together and I was hiding behind it because. It's very ambiguous. Like, you don't know what's going on there. Like it's a weird thing, hiding behind it because I'm a lady and hiding behind it because I'm new and scared to like be vulnerable and like share my music because it's a very personal thing, but I remember one of the first shows I did as Just Call Me Hugo, the sound person didn't know that I wasn't a guy. And it was the most. Now it's funny, but it was the most like anxiety, [00:32:00] producing, like horrible experiences. I, I walk up and I'm like, hi, I'm Laura. And they're like, yeah, what can I, how can I help you? And I was like, I'm playing here tonight. And he goes, I tonight, are you sure? And I was like, yeah, I'm just call me Hugo. And I kind of chuckled. I was like, it sounds like a guy name or whatever. And he was shocked. He was absolutely shocked. And it was just like, that shock was shocking. Like, why are you Maria and Stephen (Gated): you shouldn't be that Faith and Laura: Like it could be because he was expecting a dude. It could be like, Oh, shoot. I thought you would be like a guy, but that's cool. But it was Maria and Stephen (Gated): But I should be able to calibrate quickly. whole like existential experience for this man. Well, how about the amount of times you've played with your band? And the Booker doesn't assume that you are the one in charge that it, that should be paid out, right? Like the amount of times one of my bandmates had said, talk to her, right? And just the assumption that I am not in charge because I'm either the singer or the woman or the whatever, whatever it is, but it's just the flat out assumption that I am not the one in charge. and that happens less to me [00:33:00] than it did in the beginning. but yeah, I mean, that, that is a wildly common thing, I think. Faith and Laura: I'm trying to remember. I feel like that's happened like at soundcheck, like, do you need help with your guitar? Would you like me to tune your guitar? I've gotten, which now I'd be like, go for it. Actually, that would be great. I've got some other shit to take care of, but I Maria and Stephen (Gated): and how much are we seeing that phrase to the other members of our band who are male? Yeah, exactly. Cause it's like, I'm always here to give somebody the benefit of the doubt to hope that they're just there to, collaborate, do their job, you know, whatever it is. Faith and Laura: day, Maria and Stephen (Gated): And sometimes, that happens. And sometimes the case is that it's like, They've been conditioned to believe that like, we're less capable Faith and Laura: Yo, and that's the thing I think just to point out, like, I saw someone out last night and they asked, how's your record coming? Is it, is it manhattan? And I was like, well, probably. yeah. Anyway, but, but that's not the point of this, right? Like this isn't to be like [00:34:00] men. Yes, sir. It's not playing music. Yeah. Get out. Give us more. Leave, leave because we're better. It's it's a, Hey, let's all open our eyes and be mindful about how we. Let's just and how can we make it more about the music and less about everything to think that hard. Like we should normalize. We shouldn't have to think so hard about finding the female or not male led band for a diverse bill. Like it shouldn't be that hard to be like, Oh yeah. Who should we get on this one? I know this one girl. And I was that person for a while, which again, it was like, I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be on the show. I'm the diversity. Higher the the woman and the Native American like which is like cool I'm proud of that, but also it got weird. It just got weird sometimes and it's just such a and that's Like maybe not everyone's fault again. We're conditioned societal things have [00:35:00] conditioned us over years and years and years. People in the music industry are all ages. You have, you know, older people, you have people our age and people younger than us, but overall it's, it's a, it's a condition thing. we, we live in the society we live in. We've been raised the way we've been raised, but it has to be a conscious choice to like be better, but we wish it didn't have to be. Yeah. Like, and you should just be easy. You should just be like, oh, I've got like 50, 000 people, 50 people that I can think of. Think of that are talented, worthy. Yeah. People. Yeah. To be on this bill with me. And you know what? And sometimes it just works out that way. Mm hmm. And it's not always, Oh, it's going to be all men and women suck and it's not, you know, it just happens Maria and Stephen (Gated): A lot of, and a lot of stuff that happens is unintentional, right? But it's like, that doesn't make it okay Faith and Laura: Absolutely. Doesn't Maria and Stephen (Gated): And trying to find that line where we go, how can we, as both a [00:36:00] local scene, but just on a, on a broader level, how can we. Even the scales a little bit. How can we get more people, more representation in these roles? Like, like one of the things we kind of started talking about, like, for the episode was just like, we're sort of sharing our experiences of like growing up and like, what, what kind of things was I, as a little girl encouraged to go for? like there's probably a reason that at 20, when I'm entering this, you know, band mixer on campus. That I am the only woman, that's not a coincidence. It's like, how can we encourage more young women to be In these roles that are so often male dominated, and how do we find that representation so that like people growing up are like, Oh, I, I could be a booker. I could be a, a sound, a sound lady. Faith and Laura: Where it's not even a question. It's not even a question anymore of like, just normalize it. It's a job. That you're capable of doing. And it shouldn't [00:37:00] be a, Oh, there is a female Booker, you know, a woman Booker or anything like it's, it's incredible, but it should just be like a normal thing. We're human beings and it's a job to do. And we're perfectly capable of doing the job. And that's obviously we're working toward that direction. Then it's not going to happen overnight, but it's like everyone. can just think about it a little bit more. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah, I agree. It's we're, we are working towards that. I think we see more women in a lot of these roles. and I think the access to technology being easier. Now you'll see a lot more women become producers. I don't really understand why there's so few women engineering producers. Outside of that, just there's not a lot of jobs already in that part of the industry and just people wanting to hire people that are like them. And just that, that standard of going, this is comfortable. And I know this person well, and this person's like me. So I'll keep passing jobs down to this person. Faith and Laura: [00:38:00] Yep. Maria and Stephen (Gated): But there's also the, the issue of safety in some of those roles. I'm sure that plays a, plays a part.I think safety is a big thing just in the industry, just, I mean, in terms of like, like you say, it's like keeping people in and out of rooms. It's like sometimes it's the choice because it's not a safe place to be, unfortunately, Faith and Laura: of times, hey, want to come work on a song that turns into not working on a song in my experience many times. It's really not cool. It's icky. It's really icky. Yeah. It's so icky. And that's the thing though. It's like, We're not these damsels in distress. Like we're not just, Oh my gosh. You know, I, I, I can't walk, but I fear that certain keywords that we're using are going to trigger people into thinking we hate men. And that. This is encouraged to silence men and to, you know, there are going to be those people. And this is about everyone. Who's not a man. This whole history of the world has been favoring [00:39:00] men and people who identify as men. That's just how it is. And unless you're you know, a not man, it's hard to understand that. And these are very serious and genuine things. This isn't just a. Boohoo. I had a bad time one time. It's like the reason we're talking about it so much is because it's a thing. Yeah. Right. And when it comes to even gigs, I've played, I play a lot of solo gigs and I, I freak out sometimes Parking is farther away, sometimes. Mm-Hmm. , I'm walking in the middle of the night. Downtown with my guitar, and I'm just preparing myself mentally for when somebody tries to mess with me. For, not if, for when? For when. Or the weird cat call the of, oh, it's a woman with an instrument. Mm-Hmm. like, Hey baby, play me a song. Do you know how to play that? Do is, are you just carrying that or do you know how to play that and play me a song? Or, you know, they're genuine Maria and Stephen (Gated): and and certain bad experiences just [00:40:00] make people throw their hands up in the air and, and quit. And unfortunately many women seen have traumatic experiences and dangerous experiences, because of certain rooms they've been in, certain situations they've been in, that therefore discourages more women from being a part of Faith and Laura: it's like, is it worth it? Is it worth me putting myself out there? we're literally putting ourselves Maria and Stephen (Gated): hmm. When it's a literal question of safety, and especially if you consider the environment in which a lot of live music takes place late at night, city areas, like you said, parking, just never what we want it to be. Um, you know, alcohol plays a role. Yeah, absolutely. Like, and then, yeah, it's like, this is not a combination of things that makes women feel intrinsically safe. For sure. And so it's like, yeah, how, um, look, I always appreciate when a venue has, parking designated for the artists and it's like. Artists generally might [00:41:00] just think like, wow, that's really nice. I don't have to pay for parking at the gig and stuff. Women are thinking, great, this is a safer way for me to get to and from Faith and Laura: How long it'll take me to get to my Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah, and the amount of times that, like, I, with my bandmates, we've been strategic about, like, when we go to the car together, because I'm certainly not going to the car by myself. And I think it would be a luxury to not have to worry about that. but unfortunately, like, that is not the case. and there are, Fantastic, you know, people in the scene and, things that make the scene safer or I've had plenty of people offer to walk me to my car before, you know, there are plenty of amazing, Faith and Laura: I've had some venues with people like some of the security and it's, they, they're, they're kind of like, Like, I don't want to offend you, but like, if you would like, I would love to walk and I'm like, I would love that. Thank you. Like, Yeah. don't want to worry about it. I don't want, I don't, I had a great show. I don't want that anxiety. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Mm I just want to go to my car and go home and go to sleep [00:42:00] and not think about Well, and how many times have we all been selling our own merchandise and some, you know, older gentleman comes up and just totally harasses us while we're trying to, like, do our jobs and trying to, like, get that merch sold and move that merch. The amount of times that I've had to, like, a band member of mine has had to be like, all right, sir. Like, let's do it. We'll see you at the next show. Thanks for coming or whatever it is, or maybe don't come to the next show, sir. but the amount of times that like, we've been put in this position where it's like, no, hasn't been enough. And that can escalate obviously very quickly. but it's like, what can venues do to be. safer spaces, is this like a more security is that, you know, it's like, cause it's sad that it's like, I can't just go to the merch table and just assume that everybody coming up to talk to me is like buying a t Faith and Laura: and that there are safe people. That there are people who are good, well intentioned people, which fortunately, most of the time, but they And because you're representing your artistry, your brand, your, you know, I'm less inclined to be like, sir, I need you to go away. Right. [00:43:00] Because I'm like, how is that going to be perceived and did it, but it's like, no, no, we're talking about safety Maria and Stephen (Gated): now. right, Faith and Laura: yeah. I think parking is a massive thing. For me, parking, having a designated spot or having Yeah, a place that I, I can safely go to or feel comfortable going to in the dead of the night, you know, after bar close or whenever the gigs over parking would, that would be a huge thing because again, I play a lot of solo shows and yeah, I'm just like, you know, the whole time when I'm leave the venue, it's like, I'm screaming internally all the way back to my car Maria and Stephen (Gated): Well, it's interesting too, because I think sometimes we don't want to speak up in those situations because we're like, I don't want to be like, Oh, I don't want to play that venue because I don't feel safe there. But like, it was interesting. There's a venue in town that I just like, just don't love to be at for safety reasons. And then recently had another woman in the scene be like, you know, I had this really terrible experience at this place and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I was like, That's interesting. I've never spoken up about [00:44:00] not wanting to play there again for that reason. But now that I'm hearing this from you, it's like, okay, so like, maybe we should be sharing these things with each other more and, bringing things to light, like holding places accountable too is Faith and Laura: Yeah. Yeah. People, a lot of people have the suck it up attitude, like get over it, like the rub some dirt in it. Get over it. This is the real world, baby. Like, yeah. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It is indeed the real world. And it's very scary. You're like, right. Let me tell you about the real world actually. I get to ask for things that make me feel safe because I'm terrified all the time. And I've heard a lot of responses to, to people who aren't men bringing things to light and, discussing things and it being like a, like, Oh, we're talking, here we go again. We're talking about parking again. We're going to get canceled or whatever. Oh Maria and Stephen (Gated): and that is often the attitude and, and one of the things that we spoke about before recording tonight of like, how do we facilitate conversations that Empower, like positive [00:45:00] change in our community without alienating the people that really need to hear them. Right. Faith and Laura: Right. Maria and Stephen (Gated): I, I don't have an answer to that. Like just throwing it out there. Um, but yeah, how, how do we Faith and Laura: It's like a catch 22. I think the acknowledgement, the acknowledgement of it and the conversations about it and being open minded about it and not thinking we're just a bunch of crybabies out here demanding things because we're women, we get what we want. It's Maria and Stephen (Gated): well, I know that, I know that there will be other women that will be appreciative of just that this is being shared and there will be. men that it will open their eyes of like, Oh, I haven't thought of all those things. And yeah. Okay. maybe I can help more. And then there'll be people that are like, Oh, they're complaining. Yeah. Faith and Laura: Yeah. Oh, they're gonna put together another going to, Maria and Stephen (Gated): we can't, we can't change that, but you know, it's a start. I want to keep the conversation moving. Cause there's even more to talk about, [00:46:00] um, social media Faith and Laura: I would like to start. Yes. Faith. Take it away. I think social media has become such an important part of like branding and obviously like sharing your life. You're like, I think if you're smart, well, I don't want to label it that way. Sometimes I'm just a little too on there and I share everything about my life, which maybe is good. Maybe it's bad. Maybe it's in between. But then I think people become entitled to To knowing about your life and knowing about your music and being able to message you and say things are like, I don't know, like no offense guys, but like, I don't want you to come to my show and then like, ask me out in a DM afterwards. Like that makes me uncomfortable. And I'm sorry if that offends you, but like, fuck off. Maria and Stephen (Gated): it makes you feel like the bright and shiny thing. It makes you feel like a toy rather than a human when it's Faith and Laura: Or an artist. It's like you don't care about that. [00:47:00] You, you have something else that you want from me, and you think that you get to have it, kinda. Maria and Stephen (Gated): it make you feel like almost diminished in your artistry? Because it's like what you've done is like put yourself out in a very vulnerable way to be an artist, right? And then to have that met with like, just being hit on in a sloppy way that has nothing to do with honoring your talent, your artistry, your intellect. and we see that specifically in social media. It's like people, people are a lot bolder and Faith and Laura: They're hiding behind their keyboard. Yeah. Yeah. I just, oh, it drives me nuts. Or like, yeah, you'll post something and they'll be like, oh, like cute shorts, and it's like, oh, is it about the shorts? Or like, what? Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. Yeah. Often, Faith and Laura: dare you wear those shorts on the internet? Why wouldn't I comment on it? well, it's like Maria and Stephen (Gated): a post that's about your music is often derailed by a comment that you got to report to delete it because it's like, I'm not interested in the sugar daddy, whatever it is that like, you know, comes [00:48:00] up and stuff. Faith and Laura: on a side note, I would be interested in a sugar daddy that I don't actually ever have to hang out with. My, my Venmo is, Anyway, I'm kidding. Sorry. Maria and Stephen (Gated): what about to like the pressure of appearance and stuff like that on social media to like women artists and like. How we have to look and present and, so not only what we're opening ourselves up to by simply existing on the platform as women, which is just opening ourselves up to a lot more unsolicited messaging. but also like the internal and external pressure we feel to, you know, goes back to some of what we talked about with ageism and sexism in the industry in general. Well, and then there's the, if you decide to want to, use sex to sell like how that's perceived by Faith and Laura: men and women, Totally. Maria and Stephen (Gated): and that's completely different standard for women versus men. That's so true. You know, if you happen to be a [00:49:00] woman that is very traditionally attractive, then hot, you know, being online is extremely difficult because you're, you're criticized no matter what. Faith and Laura: about your body. It's like, Oh, I'm not going to take you seriously because you don't take yourself seriously. Maria and Stephen (Gated): hmm. Faith and Laura: Yeah. You know, insane. I like to buck it by like eating oatmeal and promoting a show. Literally. Maria and Stephen (Gated): like to even it out. Faith and Laura: Oh, I'm like, all right, I'll post something that's maybe a little, but then I'm going to show up with my hair, looking how it does in the morning, eating oatmeal with like the little eye patches being like, you should really come to my show this weekend. Cause I'm just showing you that it doesn't, it's not usually like that. It's not the Maria and Stephen (Gated): But the fact that you've had to really curate it in your mind is like, right, like a whole thing in itself. And I, I've often struggled too with, like how silly can I be? How, how much, how authentic can I be? How, how everything is perceived. And I still want to [00:50:00] look good doing it because I know that that plays a role in it too. And that's kind of sad too. Faith and Laura: It took a long time for me to. Like let people tag me and candid photos at performances. Cause I just like, couldn't bear to look at myself existing in the world. And it took a long time and it got to the point where I just kind of said, that's what you look like. And you are kind of a public persona now, like you, you are vulnerable and you're sharing yourself and you're sharing your music. So then, you know, I got really excited and I used to post a lot more selfies. I used to post a lot more annoying stories about random things and God forbid I share my, you know, opinions on things, but I, I haven't really been posting, a lot of selfies because I'm, Like embarrassed about it. And there've been some really cool pictures that people have taken over the years that I, you know, could have just post, or maybe I'll just put it in my story. It'd be there 24 hours and it's gone. And, and it's [00:51:00] something that I think about far too often and that's on me, but it's also like, Maria and Stephen (Gated): You've also been taught to think Faith and Laura: I've also been, approached by people, men who, have tried to like kiss me or have tried to whatever, ask me out. And it's like, usually like older gentlemen. and there was one time I was working at a place and I was walking home and the guy had come to where I was working as a barista and said, I'll see you outside. And then when I did go outside, he was out there and just kind of like, chased me on his bike and then traffic stopped and let me run across the street and then the traffic kept going. And he was telling me that I should be grateful that he even offered. And I've heard that so much, so much. I should be grateful. Maria and Stephen (Gated): To They, Faith and Laura: To be pursued to, and, and that's not good, for my brain or my heart. And, and I know logically, like that's absurd and the, but it sucks to have somebody telling you that to your face. What a [00:52:00] fucking violation. No, it's, it's insane. It doesn't, it doesn't feel good. And I, those are the things. That make you who you are and those are the things you carry with you. So when it comes to social media, I think about, I'm not the, you know, traditionally attractive person. I'm not going to be posting, you know, like cute little booty shorts and outfits and stuff, but that's fine. But I'm also overanalyzing what I'm posting. am I trying too hard to look pretty? Am I trying too hard? Is this selfie angle what I actually look like? Are people going to make fun of me? Because that's not what I look like in real life. And it just became, it got to a point where I just didn't really post that much about my face and anything. but now it's like, I don't, whatever. All I can do on social media is be myself, share the things that I want to share. I will lose followers. When I post certain things and it blows my mind and I'm like, all right, we didn't need them. Anyway, [00:53:00] right? That's weird. Goodbye but yeah, it's it's such a I haven't had like the DMS like people sliding into my DMS I've had people who have come to shows who send me Memes constantly and I'm like, I don't know who you are Like stop messaging me like ten times a day with you know, or whatever and it's it's it's just Ultimately it's just like an invasion of privacy. these are the things you choose to share, Maria and Stephen (Gated): And I think sometimes when people see that you're an artist or it's like, this is my business page, basically, let's say, right? I think they feel a sense of, well, you put yourself out there so I can do this. Faith and Laura: you gave me access. I have a right to access you. I know where you're going to be on this day at this time, essentially, which is freaky. Cause it's like, of course we're going to promote these shows, but they know where we are. Like they'll show up and they do. And it's freaky. Maria and Stephen (Gated): hmm. Faith and Laura: do you remember me? Yeah, I fucking remember you. By, uh, I don't like it. [00:54:00] Yeah, I don't know, I've thought about just like, being like, done. it's really difficult. Maria and Stephen (Gated): it's a necessary evil for our industry because it's like social Yeah. not an option. Faith and Laura: to have fun on Instagram. Like, I like it to be lighthearted, I like it to be, you know, but it's Maria and Stephen (Gated): Well, let's, let's talk about how you, how you ultimately deal with it. Like, what are some strategies? Faith and Laura: I block people. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah, I do a lot of blocking. Yep. How often are you getting like DMs that are, you know, Faith and Laura: Like inappropriate DMs. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Don't Faith and Laura: It depends. It really, like, I feel like it, it fluctuates for sure. But yeah, I've gotten less, like, Picturey, like, of like me because I know what it, what it will bring to me. But it's weird because you're always thinking about like, from a business standpoint, like interaction, engagement, da, da, da, boosting. You want people to see your promotions of the shows. So don't fuck with the algorithm, [00:55:00] bro. So it's really tough, but I don't know. Maria and Stephen (Gated): I think what's always disappointing to me is like, let's say I post, you know, cover video myself, just me and the piano, you know, 30 second clip, whatever. And you know, you get some comments and they're like, yeah, I love this song, whatever it is. And then you get the inappropriate comment and somehow it diminishes what you've just put out there. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, cause it makes you not want to post it or it makes it feel like when the post gets that kind of attention, it makes it feel lesser. And it's like, actually what I did here was like put something out into the world that's like good and creative and beautiful. And like this response diminishes that it belittles it. It makes me the bright and shiny thing and not the artist, the human, the whatever. yeah. And it is easier than it once was to like, I feel like report block, you know, like all that kind of stuff. But it's like, it does take a toll and that's a toll that we're not [00:56:00] reimbursed for. You know, like, um, Faith and Laura: us to have social Maria and Stephen (Gated): yeah. And I, and I think I struggle with kind of the necessary evil part of it of like, yeah, like social media is just, it's not an option. So there would be opportunity costs for sure. And I even think like. I think you had mentioned this earlier of how many times people invite you to collaborate or, you know, work on something that it's not actually, that's not the real agenda Faith and Laura: Right. Maria and Stephen (Gated): and, that would lead to just saying no to all of them. Um, I went through a, you know, back when I was doing more sync stuff and we did some collabs where I was reaching out to more and more people like, Hey, I need more singers and stuff like that. And it was very hard to get any female to respond to a DM at all. So very wary of being solicited. Yeah. Yeah. And it right away I was kind of like, man, I can't. And then eventually I was like, I think I know why. And it's like, well, unless I have a direct. Email or something [00:57:00] like that. I'd like, I just can't send a DM. It's not going to work. Yeah. That is so interesting. Cause it's like, so like my work as a voice teacher and a coach, like, I don't have any kind of like address and phone number on my like voice teaching website as like a safety measure. even though I do sometimes teach from my home, but when I get you know, inquiries for lessons and stuff. I'm so much more wary of, you know, where it's coming from and stuff. And it's like, it's just something that like we have to be mindful of and stuff. But then it's like, yeah, what are the opportunities that are lost when like the good guys, like a Steven comes out and it's like, Hey, let's collab on a song. And it's like, I don't know. Yeah, exactly. But if I'm still a stranger, then yeah, it's like a stranger is a stranger. Yeah. Faith and Laura: Yeah, yeah. And if it's the experience has been colored by another. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Well, and sometimes something has maybe happened, let's say there's somebody in the scene that people don't speak up about behavior wise because they [00:58:00] don't want to suffer the consequence of being blackballed. Like I think, you know, in that category of things. Faith and Laura: Totally. Or harassed by said person. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. And then it's like, you don't go to that room, go to that show, aren't on that bill because you don't want to see that person. but you also don't want to speak up about who it is because of course there's always fear of belief and like, you know, being validated, but also, being like, well, they're big in the scene, so I don't want to step on Faith and Laura: You just Faith and Laura: sit and watch them be around your friends and collaborators and fellow musicians just coexisting as if Maria and Stephen (Gated): And that's where that power dynamic comes Faith and Laura: Makes me sick to my stomach. Yeah. I was at a show recently where I left because I saw someone that did something terrible to me like a year and a half ago. And I was like, I don't want to fucking be in this room. Maria and Stephen (Gated): And it was like, how lame that I'm the one leaving. suffered the consequence of Faith and Laura: yeah. Maria and Stephen (Gated): poor actions. Faith and Laura: [00:59:00] Yes. It's just so. Yeah, and it's like, this could probably be a whole episode on its own, like the idea of cancel culture and all that. Like, I don't know like where that lies anymore. Like, I'm not, I don't know how I think about it to be completely honest. I honestly don't let myself engage too much mentally because it's exhausting, but I don't know. Like, to me, it feels like. In that particular situation, it was like, yeah, I probably could like cancel this person, but that's not like who I want to be. And that, and ultimately it's not even that it's not who I want to be. That's not what I want to be known for. That's what they're going to focus on. Yeah. They're not going to focus on you as a musician or your creativity and your shows and your music. It's going to be, Oh, she's the one who said X, Y, Z about blah, blah, blah. This person did this to her. And it has Maria and Stephen (Gated): It's like you become the whistleblower, not the like Yeah. spoke up. Faith and Laura: And then it's an identifier that maybe you don't necessarily want because then it's like, it's for some [01:00:00] people. And in my situation, it's literally trauma. Yeah. That, that takes over everything. Yeah. That is the thing that's the focus in your life, which makes it more prominent in your life. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Do you guys remember a group on Facebook years ago that was like I don't know if you know this existed. um, does it still exist? I am like, it was a pretty hip happening group on Facebook for a while that was basically, you know, like Fem, queer, non binary women, you know, just like any non male identifying, members were, were allowed. And it was a place ideally to kind of, speak up and, and also ask questions. Like originally I think it was supposed to be kind of more resource that was like, Hey, I'm looking for producers. Has anybody worked with somebody they've had a positive experience with, you know, like, and a place to ask those questions that like going. Way back earlier today, like of like, sometimes not feeling like you even have the place to ask the question because you're trying to put on this front,but that, that group ended up having quite a bit of like traction with like, [01:01:00] unfortunately, like needing to speak up about predators in the scene and any, all these things. Things and stuff. and then I feel like it maybe lost some traction too, because then people start being like, they don't really want people to speak up because now that's their friend or that's their whatever that, I think I'm still part of the group, but I, maybe I don't get the notifications anymore, but, so I don't really know what it's up to. But Faith and Laura: I think it's definitely gone back to a little bit more back to, yeah. Maria and Stephen (Gated): That's great. Faith and Laura: Hey, I'm looking for a drummer. Yeah. Like anybody Maria and Stephen (Gated): is the group called? Faith and Laura: I think it's supposed to be a safe space. If people who might be the topic of Maria and Stephen (Gated): Oh, yeah. Faith and Laura: out and try to like fake their way into Maria and Stephen (Gated): group? Faith and Laura: it is a private group, but you, yeah, they might fake their way into it and just to. Get the hot goss or whatever they want to call it. But yeah, seen a lot of interesting interactions in that group. ultimately it's a place of like, Hey, am I the only one who's experiencing Maria and Stephen (Gated): it's good to have places like that. Like, and, and where more opportunities [01:02:00] for that to exist. Like beyond, yeah. Finding community. our, like within ourselves, honestly. Cause yeah, I feel like I have a few friends that are men in the scene that Specifically have like really gone to bat for me, like with that particular situation I mentioned earlier and had a conversation with this person and said, please like avoid faith and she doesn't want to speak with you. Faith and Laura: Blah, blah, blah. Like this band you were part of, like, you're taking a break from it because this isn't cool. and so like, that's amazing, but yeah, some, it's not always the case, right. That people will do that. So, but I, I hope that That people maybe that hear this, right, that aren't women or whatever, that are men is what I mean, would maybe like understand that this is something that like happens to so many people. And if, if you can like be a supportive safe space for your non men friends that have gone through something like this and, and have those hard [01:03:00] conversations maybe with the person, like if, you know, just to be like, Hey, stay away. Yeah. And again, we're not are so many allies within the music community, right? Like, there are, I do feel like so many good Oh yeah, it's taken, it's taken me a long time to find them. And now fortunately I'm surrounded by incredible men. Yeah. but that's the thing is historically there's no doubt that historically. Things have benefited men more than anyone, particularly, you know, we won't go that far, but no, but particularly white men, particularly white men, let's call it. And, and that's not to say how dare you be a white man. Like, you know, a lot of people get triggered and hurt and upset by that. It's like, just acknowledge. That historically, that is how it has been. And it has taken an insane amount of time for us to come out of that in general. Like we, we still don't have equal pay. We still don't have, there's, and it's just like, that doesn't make sense. Like there's nothing you can say that will [01:04:00] justify that, So when it comes to this conversation, it's. I'm really happy that I get to be a participant in this because I just really want to. I just want to find the right words. It's like, what words do I need to say for you to not be offended and for you to just be like, yeah, yeah, that's, that's a thing. Like I acknowledge your experience. Yeah. And it's not saying this is, you know, this has been easy for everybody. Who's, who's not a woman or whatever, Maria and Stephen (Gated): hmm. Faith and Laura: these are real experiences and it's it's a factual Maria and Stephen (Gated): The best thing we can do is just simply have a conversation, bring it to light. I mean, cause I know it's like, even when you and I talked, about the idea of, you know, having an episode like this, we were both like, I have reservations about this because no matter what, you're falling into like a controversial territory and like, um,but I think. Especially, like, as I've gotten older and more confident in the scene and stuff, I think I'm more willing to risk speaking [01:05:00] up for, like, what I believe is, you know, needs to be spoken up about. Faith and Laura: I have been terrified to have a conversation like this that will be publicly documented, you know? Because no matter what there are going to be some people who are going to rip it apart and that's whatever. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. The goal here is that hopefully more women talk to each other. And you know, I loved the idea that you were getting people together and talking about specific experiences about even just how to communicate or. which venues are safe or which producers you like to work with or whatever, you know, I think that is a really great starting point. That should be happening more and more, and I encourage more artists to reach out. If you are a woman that's new to the scene, like, Try to connect with more women and I've never had a woman in the scene not agree to get coffee with me. Right? Like I, there is such a spirit of, I mean, talk about something really positive in the scene. I think there is such a spirit of like women helping [01:06:00] women, helping women in the scene and comradery and just anytime I've been. Asked to get coffee or I asked to get coffee with somebody. I mean, I've just seen such a, a beautiful, like sharing of experience, sharing of resources and just, women are so good at pumping each other up too. Right. Like, I was almost like going to suggest like, Stephen, let us do each other's bios. Cause I bet we'll sell each other, you know, much better than we can talk about ourselves. Right. Faith and Laura: Oh my gosh, we would be way more animated. Oh, let me tell you. Maria and Stephen (Gated): cool. Let me tell you. but I think that is a really positive thing in our Twin Cities community at least that, I mean, so, so many wonderful female artists that I've like gotten to work with are just absolute, like wonderful humans, wonderful artists and willing to share and Faith and Laura: I think to, just like, the past, like growing, growing up, you see, like, I don't know about y'all, but Christina Aguilera fan, but who was pitted against each other in like magazines. [01:07:00] It's like what you saw, it's what you're conditioned to do is like be in competition with each other. And none of it was real. None of it's real. Yeah. It's like weird propaganda that I was like super into as but I do think like, as I've gotten older and like, we've done some of these like Shania tributes and the Dolly show. It's like, never have I had a Like a more fun time is like then like cheering from the sideline while y'all are crushing it. I was so excited to be invited to be part of that. Cause I had, you know, seen, you know, I didn't get to go to the first couple, but I was just, oh my gosh, it was, it made me feel cause all of these women I was obsessed with that I just celebrated individually. And it was so much fun to be a Maria and Stephen (Gated): I think you and I actually had a conversation in the green room last Shania night where you and I go, can you believe we got asked to do this? Because I love all these artists so much. What an absolute honor to share the stage with them and the spirit of [01:08:00] nights like that where it's like, let's, let's celebrate each other. Maybe more of that stuff. Yeah. Why not? Faith and Laura: yeah. Maria and Stephen (Gated): more Shania for sure, right? Yeah. Faith and Laura: oh, always. And I'll say just, I know you guys weren't a part of that first night. I wish you would have been the very first one in 2019. It was so fun, but there was a really magical moment at the rehearsal where it was like, pretty much everybody was there at the same time and we were in like, I remember, Amber, or Mae, Mae Simpson was like doing her song, and I was like Okay. Like in like a, like, Oh my God, wow. And then I was like sitting on the floor, like singing my song. And then she like whacked me on the back and was like, are you kidding me? And we were all just like, that's the spirit of it. Yes. Yes. And it's, and I've, I always joke about, I have this very, very fine line between complete and utter admiration and. am I doing? I quit. And I think that like [01:09:00] writing that line, it's not jealousy. It's not, you know, it's like, what am I doing? Who do I think I am? But then, then that's like reciprocated. Literally. And I'm like, what the heck, what is happening? And I have to tell you that the Shania shows in the Dolly show, that might be one of the first times I've ever experienced something like that. The joy that it brought me and the confidence that it brought me. And I, I'm not used to singing without playing a guitar or playing an instrument. And it was the first time I really did anything, that I was really excited about, but I had you up there and that made me feel so much better. And you were, Faith was so encouraging. And I was just like, thinks I can do it. but yeah, that, that, I loved that. And I had never experienced that before. And it felt like I went on some sort of magical goddess retreat or something where I was like, how am I a part of this? Like, Maria and Stephen (Gated): How can we create more moments like that? throughout the year? Yeah. Especially, [01:10:00] you know, bringing around events, but then encourage more of that conversation. Cause I think the more that happens, the faster progress is made. Absolutely. I have another point that I sort of want to try to sneak into this episode before we get down because obviously the sexes are still going to intermingle and some of those collaborations will be great. You know, we made a record together and it was awesome. It was fantastic. Obviously, we want that to continue to happen as more women enter the industry, that it's not just women working with women and men working with Faith and Laura: Exactly. Maria and Stephen (Gated): not the goal either, right? Faith and Laura: Not to just So it's, it's, it's obviously going to stay intermingled. Maria and Stephen (Gated): And another obvious thing is, is that a lot of people are looking for their partners and are going to be sexually attracted to somebody that's also good at what they love, right? All that's natural. Of course it would be that if you're a male musician and you see a female musician up there crushing that you're like, Ooh, I want her to notice me and I want [01:11:00] to impress her or whatever. But the thing is, the way is if you want to absolutely blow it and have it never work, then, then do things like say, can I tune your guitar You know, do you need some help with that in some sort of condescending way? I think that is generally referred to as Faith and Laura: does that work for you? Maria and Stephen (Gated): I don't know. Yeah, I know. Has that ever worked for somebody like, Oh, they talked down to me at a gig and I thought I'd marry him, you know? Faith and Laura: I was just like, you know what, this man's going to take care of me. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Right. Yeah. Faith and Laura: I think there's a reason I've been single for like, almost six years. so trying to be somehow emotionally manipulative is generally a losing strategy. Just know that Educational Maria and Stephen (Gated): and, and if you are serious as a musician or producer or somebody in the industry and you do genuinely like somebody and you are flirting with them or whatever. If it's in the capacity of doing their job or your job, it's probably not the right time. It's workplace rules. Yeah. [01:12:00] HR. this is a huge gray area, so I can't say this is exactly how you got to do it. But the point is, is especially if you're the one being hired to do something in that case, absolutely not. be transparent about what you're, what you're doing and pick the right time. It's not when they're playing a show Faith and Laura: Yeah, don't wait until you're kind of like, Maria and Stephen (Gated): that's, that's never going to work. And also sort of like, and if it doesn't work, don't hold it against them either. And don't, don't put anybody in a position where they feel like they're going to suffer negative consequence by not reciprocating, right? Like, Faith and Laura: then having to be like fearful of encountering Maria and Stephen (Gated): Mm hmm. Faith and Laura: for Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. Right. But for instance, we're, we're going to have, there's already a million home studios and home engineers and home producers, right? And so you're going to have even more collaborations every year, right? And so if your intention is to [01:13:00] invite somebody over ultimately to try to either flirt or hook up or whatever, like you're probably not going to get the end result that you're looking for here. In order for the scene to stay healthy, like those things need to be genuine in the sense that like if you because there might be both things might be true ultimately that you do like them and want to collaborate, but you also like them more than that, right? I can see that being very natural and very common at the same time, but don't mix those things. It's not fair to the person you're asking and it will only backfire. It's okay. You can collaborate, but then after that's done. Then you ask somebody out on a date, you know, like be transparent, be like a solid human. And also like, because our industry is so informal and abnormal in terms of like workplace environment, it's like, yeah, we are often in each [01:14:00] other's homes to rehearse for shows or out at bars late at 2 a. m. or, you know, we're often put in situations that are not H. R. friendly, uh, you know, workplaces. But treat your profession with the same level of professionalism that you would if you were working in an office culture. Faith and Laura: you know what? That's attractive. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. Yeah. And also note to, you know, places like venues and all these things, you know, HR departments be, be in existence, step up so that if there are inappropriate things that happen, there's somebody to help aid the situation rather than just being like, nobody's liable, like. Faith and Laura: Yeah. And this is to every Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. Yeah. Just like, act well and like, be smart and like, Faith and Laura: I feel like it takes way less effort and energy to just be respectful and professional until it is indicated by yourself or the other person outside of a professional setting that maybe this is, maybe we are flirting, let's, you know, but [01:15:00] it's, I think it shouldn't be that hard to be a respectful human, you know, right. And like, how many fire emojis will you reply to the Instagram story? Maria and Stephen (Gated): that aren't working for people. Unsolicited DMs, waiting for them outside the venue, speaking down to them, you know, these listen, we got a list of things not to do. We all deserve some basic human respect, and I just, it takes so much effort to be a weirdo. like, in a creepy way. I think for people like us, it takes a lot of effort. Well, I mean, I'm a weird, I'm a weird person, but like to, to like, go to like, not be like, yeah. Faith and Laura: Cause I'm like, I don't know if you're flirting with me. You know, it's like the, I can't read that certain thing, but I'm awkward and I'm weird and, but not like. I'm gonna wait for you outside, or, you know, anything like that. It's just like, if someone said that to me, I'd be like, you're Actually, I don't know what I would do. I'd like to think that I'd be like, no, you're not. But I'm kind of passive. So maybe I'd be [01:16:00] like, where will you be waiting for me? Cause I'm gonna go out a different way. Maria and Stephen (Gated): But I, I think at the end of the day, there is a way to, I, I think you're right. The inevitability that like mutual at traction happens in the scene. It's like, yeah, we're all passionate about the same thing, so that's gonna happen. but the way to go about it is work is work and dating life is dating life. And it's like, don't put people in a position where those things are compromised. And especially if it's not reciprocated. Don't Yeah. Don't be mad at them. Yeah. Don't, don't Faith and Laura: You're not entitled to any buddy else's time or body or whatever. Just like respect it. And if you're an Aries base player, please stay away from me. Just kidding. Kind of don't be creep. don't be creepy. Maria and Stephen (Gated): in general, don't try to offer any sort of help or service in exchange for something else. Right, right. Like you gotta just be professional and say what it is. Well, and I think that's where like, there is kind of an interesting line of like, [01:17:00] actually the night I met my husband was at a show and he did offer to like, walk me to my car. And at this point now, this is a different situation because he was mutual friend of somebody that, you know, I trusted and all this stuff. But, all of this is say, you can obviously cut this part out. but If you are, if you have good intentions and you, you do want to like pursue somebody or something, you may want to help, you may want to help that person get to safety with their car and stuff, unfortunately understand that it's like we have been conditioned with good reason to be very wary of this. And so maybe. Like, that's maybe that's not the way, but this is where venues you can step in and make sure that there's somebody to walk them to their cars. You know what I mean? No, but I think your story is exactly the point in that. Yes. Sometimes it's legitimate and you might actually find your partner that way because that happens to it for a lot of people. These are the people that we hang out with. This is our community. This is our family. This is where [01:18:00] you are most likely to find a partner. Right? Faith and Laura: Sorry. I found my last partner, my ex. Maria and Stephen (Gated): the point is, is that there's certain things you can say, cause there's a, so there's a huge gray area. That's all I'm saying. But there are certain things that are just straight up, never going to work or wrong. And there's too much of that. Yeah. Okay. And it's okay to still interact and it's still okay to do those things. But if you are in the professional side, the industry side. No, it's not like that's where, that's where you have to say no. And if you're just a fan and you're, you know, faith gets off stage and you want to go flirt, like don't be mad if you're dismissed, Faith and Laura: Yeah. Maria and Stephen (Gated): respectful and, and, transparent. That's I think the best you can hope for. That's a great rule of thumb. Faith and Laura: I think, and I liked what you said just don't, or, well, I don't know if you said it explicitly this way, but just like, don't assume that. Reciprocation will be there if that's what you're interested in. [01:19:00] Let's remove all assumptions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In this capacity. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Yeah. Faith and Laura: Just, know, be a person. Assumptions and entitlement. Maria and Stephen (Gated): but probably assume that women are getting a lot of whatever you're thrown out there, too. So, given that if you put yourself in their shoes, understand how easy it's going to be to be ignored or rejected or whatever, because they have to deal with this at a much, much higher rate. I'm not going to get any DMS from anybody, you know, like it's not happening. So it's like, and I think men sometimes don't really think that through, they don't really think about it that way. Faith and Laura: Right. Maybe they're just shooting their shot and that's, okay, fine, Maria and Stephen (Gated): At the end of the day, just be respectful, be, you know, transparent. Faith and Laura: It's just funny. It seems like these things should be so basic, Yeah. just need that refresher, Maria and Stephen (Gated): have to be said, but here it is. we'll, but we'll see Well, this has been a great conversation. Have we missed anything that we need [01:20:00] to bring up before we wrap this up? If you're a young woman listening to this episode, we hope that you're not discouraged by us sharing. our hope is that by having conversations, we empower each other and we empower the younger generation to become a part of this scene because so much so much happens when representation is just increased. So bringing things to light, and I just feel like if there are any, you know, younger women listening to this episode today, it's like, pick up the bass, pick up the drums, start, you know, download logic, do the things that maybe you haven't been encouraged to do. but enter, enter the scene and yeah, just go for it and know that like, You can learn along the way and speak up as you go and Faith and Laura: And there's no other option. You will learn along the way how it works and because like, not to go down like another rabbit hole, but like, you think about like, when we all started writing music and like how [01:21:00] different success looked, right? Like social media wasn't a thing. And like, know, right. Oh, so right. My space. Oh my God. How dare I? But yeah, it's like redefining success and finding your way with that. Cause I think as a woman, especially like with a lot of the stuff we've talked about, ageism and sexism and things like that, it's like, yeah, sometimes you do have to reframe it. Maria and Stephen (Gated): Being an artist is already such a vulnerable activity. And then being an artist, in a subgroup, that's not as well represented. And that goes for you know, any minority of any kind, I don't know if that's the way to say that, but, but like being an artist is already a vulnerable activity, but let's create a safer space for people to create beautiful art. Faith and Laura: you know, space for people who aren't Maria and Stephen (Gated): Mm hmm. And people are doing it. Women are doing it. Know that they're out there. They're having these conversations and like the numbers growing. Yeah. Faith and Laura: one thing I would have [01:22:00] loved to hear as a young woman myself is your thirties aren't terrible. You're not irrelevant. You can still be happy. You can still pursue your dream.who cares what you look like? You're perfect the way that you are. You're creative, you're intelligent. I wish I, I would have saved a lot of, you know, years of, of trying to lose weight and trying to look a certain way and destroying my body in the process. And, You don't have to wait to hear 33 to figure that out. Yeah. And I do have a lot of faith in this faith, but I, I have a lot of hope for this and I, I've already seen a lot of improvements over just my time in the scene here. We're not saying that every, you know, venue we walk into, there's a man in our face or trying to kidnap us or something or assault us. But I, I, I just really wish people would take that more seriously and just acknowledge it, just, take a minute and think about what it, what it might be like and how you [01:23:00] might come off in that way. And especially, you know, I've gotten a lot of comments about my looks and it's just, It's not relevant. No, that's the thing that's not relevant. I love that. it's good. Calling the sugar daddies that don't require. Maria and Stephen (Gated): from this episode. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Well, I usually, at the end of every episode, I usually ask, you know, what is the guest's secret from the scene? But I kind of feel like both of those were already very, very good tips. But if anybody wants to add anything else, we can do that now. Otherwise, we'll wrap it up. Thanks, Stephen. Thank you for providing a platform. Like, this is just awesome to have this conversation and hopefully it's just the beginning of many conversations. so thank you for using the podcast to not only do so much great resource sharing and other episodes, but just creating an opportunity to speak. Faith and Laura: I have a, I have a secret from the scene. If you are a non man and you would like an internship with Stephen, you could email him. Maria and Stephen (Gated): sure. [01:24:00] I was, I was saying before, as we were discussing how. It's so strange why there's not so many like, especially in the recording engineer and producer side of things that it's so, so heavily male dominated, that in the 15 years I've been doing this, I've only had one woman reach out. One for an internship. And so I don't know what that is, but if there are more women out there, you should reach out to me, but to any studio, it's fine. If you're interested, go for it, you know, absolutely Faith and Laura: talented. You're capable. Maria and Stephen (Gated): You got this. this is great. And we obviously acknowledge that we don't, we didn't cover everything. Sure. You know, it's, there's more depth, there's more groups, there's more problems, there's things we didn't cover, but there's also more podcast episodes in the future too. So if, um, anybody listening thinks we left out something that absolutely needs to be the next episode, the next topic, then hit me up and let's figure out how to cover that one next. [01:25:00] as long as it's. in effort to make things better for the scene, then it fits the podcast. thank you guys so much. This was great. And I, I hope it helps some people there and, uh, for all you listeners, thank you for taking the time and taking this seriously. And if you think this is an, a conversation that, you know, that somebody else needs to hear, then share it and we'll all be helping out in our small little ways then. Love it. All right. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next time.