Ep. 33: Creating and Nurturing Musical Communities with Sarah Morris

Stephen: Welcome to secrets from the scene. My name is Stephen Helbig and I'm your host. I'm a local music producer here in the twin cities. And today I have Sarah Morris joining me. Who's an excellent artist in our community and has been doing excellent work for quite a while now. she's very prolific, both on the music side and on the content side, which we're going to dive into. I've seen Sarah play in the past and I've listened to her music in the past. But the more I did research on her for this episode, the more [00:01:00] impressed I was in terms of all the things that you are doing and doing well too. and in our conversation before this episode, it became apparent that we really needed to dive in and focus on community and community. Building community and supporting community, because I think Sarah is an expert in that area. And I also think that it's one of the most important things that any independent artist can do. And it's a topic that comes up a lot in one way or another. So I'm excited to really. dive into that and talk specifically about the things that Sarah does to build such a great community and to build up other people's communities and the wider community here in the Twin Cities. But before we do all of that, I'm going to read a little bit of Sarah's bio, just to give you some context and into what she's been up to and all the things she's accomplished up to this point. A graduate of the Lawrence University Conservatory of Music, Sarah spent the first years of her career in [00:02:00] Nashville. Losing herself in the art of writing timeless Americana melodies. In the eight years since her 2011 debut album, Lonely or Free, Sarah's career, like her songs has been overflowing with delicious details, her albums, Ordinary Things in 2015, Hearts in Need of Repair, 2017, and All Mine in 2020. Recorded with bandmates, Thomas Nordlin, Andrew Foreman, and Lars Eric Larson with producer Eric Bloomquist earned international airplay and considerable critical acclaim, reaching notable positions on both the Americana Music Association and Euro Americana charts. In 2016, Sarah was a top four finalist in the New Song Music Contest at Lincoln Center in New York City, second place winner of the Chris Austin song writing competition at Merlefest in Wilkesboro, North Carolina, and an Americana semifinalist in the International Songwriting Competition. Petition in 2018. She went on to win the Carville new folk competition, collecting an honorable mention at the Telluride Troubadour contest. Along the way, more recently, Sarah was named a Midwest country [00:03:00] music organization songwriter of the year for the second time. Third time, yeah, because they just happened. Sarah: app. Yeah, that's kind of fun. Stephen: Chris Reimann Schneider of the Star Tribune wrote, Rootsy singer Sarah Morris offers a Nora Jones like approach to Americana, smoothing over its rough edges with a butter velvety voice and an intimate songwriting style. Inclined toward the intimacy of live performance, Sarah spends a remarkable amount of time on stage. Whether solo, backed by the country kick of her longtime band, as half vintage harmony heavy duo The Home Fires with Vicki Emerson, or hosting local and traveling musicians live online from her big green bathroom, her playful, hearted presence is both captivating and contagious. I missed her steady performance schedule. She has opened for greats like J. D. Souther, Suti Boggess. She's had plenty of beautiful moments to revel in, and with a brand new album to share in 2023, she's primed to offer us a few beautiful moments of our own. Deeply committed to the Twin Cities life giving music [00:04:00] community, Morris hosts an online interview program called Hey I Miss You to amplify the work of her peers as well as collaborating with musicians for a YouTube series of under rehearsed cover songs. Filmed in her Laurel green bathroom called toilet tunes. Additionally, Morris's head cheerleader for a local songwriting collective. And I'm sure more, I don't think this is even a hundred percent up to date. Please welcome Sarah Morris. Sarah: Thank you, Stephen, for, for reading that in my face. And then I'm like, Oh gosh, bios are so awkward, but they are what they [00:05:00] are. Stephen: You're you have a good bio. I was impressed. You know, obviously there's Sarah: I hired someone to write that. Stephen: that's a good idea. Sarah: Bios are hard to write. I mean, I tried to, then I was like, wait, someone else is good at this and I will. And what's fun about, I don't know if you've ever done that process, but as they ask you really great questions. And so it actually is an opportunity to kind of figure out yourself a little bit more. It's like a mini therapy session. Stephen: Yeah. Well, and it helps you clarify what your brand is in that sense of like, what, what your angle is, how you're trying to differentiate and stand out and, you know, Describe yourself. Yeah. No, I think it's all, it was all good. So when people do have good bios, it's nice to, it's nice to actually read them. well, I always start these with letting you sort of talk about yourself a little bit about your background. you can be as brief as you want, but it's helpful for other artists listening to kind of hear a little bit of your journey, like where it started up to now. Sarah: Yeah, I mean I think it's a pretty standard [00:06:00] Midwestern Like, choir girl, just wouldn't stop singing kind of journey, you know, I just grew up singing in my living room. And then once there were options in school besides general music, you know, anytime there was a, if, was there a play, was there a choir, was there an a cappella group to join? You know, like I joined it all. and, I think at the time I thought I, cause I loved performing, which I do, but I actually just love singing, and I love the act of singing with other people and, and being part of a thing. So, so that was, you know, me through high school. I went to Roseville area high school So not far from where I've ended up today. And then after school, after high school, I went to Lawrence University, which is a tiny school in Appleton, Wisconsin, but I loved it because they have a conservatory program there. So you can go and focus pretty intensely on music while also getting liberal arts. for your other third of your classes and, [00:07:00] and Laura Appleton was great. I just actually had a show there a few weeks ago and was kind of overwhelmed with gratitude for having found it because it was a really good fit for me.and then I studied vocal performance and music ed there and I did my music ed student teaching. and. After that, tried teaching a little bit, but I knew I wanted to go to Nashville. So I, while I was, I was doing this like long term choir sub position, saving up money so that when I moved to Nashville, I had. now this is ages ago, so don't use this money for any reckoning, but I had 3, 000 and I was like, they'll get me somewhere, you know, and it did get me somewhere. I had a friend that moved with me. We found an apartment online that we didn't see a picture of, but we knew the address was close to the Bluebird. And so we just went. And. It was great. It was, you know, I was young and it was a really good town to go have fun in and learn a lot. So I always feel like that was my grad school in a way because [00:08:00] I, you know, learned about co writing, which was my introduction to songwriting. And I learned about harmony singing and I learned about.how to be, you know, hopefully professional in a performance setting. And I learned a lot by watching others and dipping my toe into a few waters. And also clarified that I didn't want to be a country singer, much less like country, you know, like the, the vision changed for what I wanted while I was there, the love for songwriting grew stronger and, I got married while I was doing that. at that, like in that period of time. And so then my husband and I, he's also from, we also in Jerusalem high school, we moved back home so he could go to law school. And, it was great. It was really good timing. It was like four years was again, akin to grad school. I felt like I still missed Nashville when I left, you know, I have a lot of friends who stayed and either they're still there, but they don't really do as much music or, you know, it's easy enough to get burnt out in that [00:09:00] town. And I kind of just. Loved it the whole time and left with love. And now when I get to go back, it's like, Oh, I thought you were great. You were so welcoming. And also there was this delight when I moved home because I could make some money, not a lot of money, but for singing. There were places here in Minnesota that would pay you to sing wild. Um,and so I did that for a few years where I would sing, actually the first, there were two places that gave me,stage ish situation. And one was in Excelsior, the Dunn brothers. So we're, which is very close to where we're taping today. The Dunn brothers in Excelsior was, was an initial supporter and I could not be more thankful for the way they let me show up there knowing I zero things about how to be a performing singer songwriter, like, or maybe five things, you know, very few things. and I kept up a decent, slightly growing performance schedule as [00:10:00] we had kids and, but, and I wrote a little, but not a lot, I put out two albums in 2011 And then after having my second kiddo and being a mother for a while, I started to feel weird about the fact that I was telling people I was a songwriter, but I wasn't really writing any songs. And that coincided with a moment when I had just completed the 12 week book, The Artist's Way. Have you ever done that? By Julia Cameron. It's wonderful. And I did it with, in tandem with my. Bass player, Andrew Foreman and my guitar player, Thomas Nordlund at the time. So it's like 12 weeks walking you through kind of a creative journey, kind of intended to free your creative spirit, maybe get in greater touch with it. And so after that, I was really feeling ready to do something. I didn't know what that something was and that something turned out to be an invitation from a stranger on Facebook, not to me particularly, [00:11:00] but to the world that they were going to start a group of prompt based. Weekly songwriting a challenge if you will and you were supposed to write a song a week based on a prompt and Present your song by the end of that week with a video to the internet. This is 2014 Sounded really scary to me, but it sounded like the kind of scary that was Perhaps growth inducing, Stephen: Mm hmm. Sarah: And so I talked to my husband and I said, Hey, this will look different I've got the two kids I'll need some time to steal away. You know, I don't know how to write songs while they're here all the time. It was summer and they weren't very old yet. So they were just with me every minute. And what that mostly looked like was I would strap them in the double stroller and take them to the park. And I started writing at that time and still do almost all of my writing It takes place while I'm moving, and a song gets pretty well formed before I sit down with a guitar. That's generally the, the path. And then [00:12:00] after that year, I mean, I've been part of that group since 2014. So every summer we write now 10 songs. Every winter we write 10 songs together and it's resulted in albums and yeah, it's It's resulted in music videos, and it's resulted in me making a lot of awesome friends, and it's resulted in me growing ever more devoted to the fact that I think songwriting is just the most fun, Stephen: Mm. Sarah: and, and I get to travel sometimes for music, and yeah, Stephen: Ah, that's cool. Sarah: so, I feel like that's the story. Stephen: That's great. All right. I want to dig into little pieces of this. Let's start with the last thing you ended on with the songwriting prompt group who started it. Sarah: Laurel Hay. Stephen: Laura. Hey, Sarah: Yep. She and her dad and then her boyfriend at the time, who's now her husband, started it based on, there was a national group called, I think, Real Women, Real Songs. I don't know if they still exist. They did a few years and they're always 52 songs. They're a full year. And at that, my understanding of that group [00:13:00] is it's more like they select 10 writers to who agree to participate. And so Laurel wanted to start that. And I think our first, I don't know how many started that first week, but by the end of the first summer, when we went to the showcase, where we like gathered to share our songs, there was only four of us. And now when a session will start out, like our last session in the winter had like 80 people the first week, which is totally wild and it never stays at the first week, you know, number, but it's beautiful. And the group changes. I'm the one that's been there the longest. And then Pat Egan is, he joined in the winter of 2015, so he's my second longest, but I've met so many fantastic humans that way. Stephen: Is it all online in person? Sarah: It's all online, the sharing of it. And then there's one in person event per session that is it's optional. We tend to mostly [00:14:00] have people in the Twin Cities, but we've have Joe from Tennessee. You know, we've got people in Northern Minnesota. We have, I'm trying to think we've had some overseas friends. So it's very, it's lovely in that way that anyone could join at any. Stephen: Mm hmm. That's cool. And it's just free or is it a, okay. Sarah: Laurel's a saint. Laurel doesn't get to write with us as much anymore, but she provides the prompts, which come out every Sunday. We're gonna start up again on June 23rd, if anyone watches this and feels compelled to take the leap. It was so, and continues to be, so fortifying in my Ability to move through that sense of like, Oh, but I wanted a perfect song because you just don't have time. Stephen: Mm hmm. Sarah: And so committing to them, these people and committing to that deadline means that I get finished songs and I'd rather have a finished song than a perfect song because perfect songs never done. Stephen: I love that. And I think [00:15:00] that's a reoccurring theme in my own life too. Of just done is better than perfect. It really is because or something is better than nothing is really what it comes down to. Yeah. and I think it's, it is something that, that, Artists tend to get really stuck on, a lot. I've been there, for sure. and it is something that I feel like as you are, as you take the dive to, whether it's to write more songs or to start another YouTube series. To start a podcast or any of the content things, it all becomes part of that. Like you get to a point where you realize there's nothing else that I can do with this amount of time. Like, this is as good as it gets. And if I'm going to do this at all, then I am, I have to accept that percent is fine, you know? And I think that's a really hard trade off for people. Sarah: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think at some point you just maybe make the commitment, the trade off, it's better to, [00:16:00] to do the thing, Stephen: Exactly. Sarah: you know, like, and that's what it was for me is I just wasn't comfortable anymore with leaning into that. It's going to be perfect. You know, like I just, it, there was just a time where I was just like, Oh, I can't live that way. You Stephen: The way I look at it too, because I think that there's like the pushback on that argument is, and there's logic in this, is that, well, you have to put your best foot forward, like first impressions matter. all of those kind of logical things of like, you know, you, if you're putting out something, that's not the best representation of you, you might a bad impression with somebody that you only get one chance with. Right. But Generally speaking, because I think that there can be truth to that, that that fear is way overhyped because it's just, the truth is, is that the, the greater fear should be that no one will ever see you. Sarah: Oh my gosh. I mean, when I get really down in the dumps about things, you know, about, or kind of worried about music stuff, or [00:17:00] this happens a lot at album release, like when I have to go put the album out there, right? Like, I'm so proud of this, but the work sometimes of sharing your work is heart on the heart, exhausting, whatever. And I just remember like, guess what, Sarah, no one's going to come knock on your door and say, please show me your album. Like that's not happening. No one's going to come to my door and say, Hey Sarah, did you write a song today? You know, like. I don't want that stuff. Do you know Brene Brown? Stephen: Yes. Sarah: She has, you know, unused creativity is not benign. And I believe that. Like, it's just really important to me to not be the person who leaves with a bunch of like songs stuck inside of her, you know? Stephen: Yeah. you're way at a much larger risk of being completely ignored than you are of being judged because that was your 80th, 80 percent good Sarah: Yeah. Stephen: piece of content, whatever it Sarah: For sure. I will put things out and it will be like, ah, you were not my best, but you were the best I could do that day. And, and now we move onward. Yeah. Stephen: In [00:18:00] the, evolving industry that we live in, where it's like content all the time and that kind of stuff, there's a lot to be gained about just being raw and vulnerable and authentic in that sense of like putting stuff out that reflects like, this is what my songs sound like at stage one, at draft one. that some people can like that a lot. I think that there's room for both in the end that you can do things that are like. You just have to be clear about what you're doing, you know, that like, this is a first take. This is not my best take. And Sarah: is all I Stephen: and then still release that album that you worked a year on, you know, you can do both things. And I think that that's a really good approach for people to keep the mindset of like, if you think everything has to be that good, then what happens is you don't do any social media and that's self defeating because without social media, that album that you worked on probably won't get heard. and so just. Breaking it into different camps. Like it's okay to have some things that are not perfect, [00:19:00] but they're doing their job, they're serving their purpose. And then some things that you really do want to curate and make perfect and then just present them differently. Sarah: Yes. Stephen: All right. Well, that was sort of a tangent, Sarah: I like the tangent. I mean, I think one thing you said there that really struck for me is that I only ever had the time to be raw and vulnerable. That's how this group started. And I think it was, you know, I think now people are even leaning into that more, but it was just what we were doing. And so I feel very fortunate that that is like the culture I fell into and it's, I mean, I write a lot of songs about how we are just all messy people and that's what we got. So I feel like I live into that with those recordings, but then it's great to have a longer form. Like you mentioned an album, it's not, we're going to be perfect. Eventually that album is still going to have that same place where I'm going to have to press the, you know, fill out the papers that say, this is the paper, this is the album, go print it, you know, and it won't be perfect, but it will be, you know, perfectly what it is. And [00:20:00] I'll be thrilled with it and we are ready to move forward. But it is, that's a place where you can lavish a different kind of attention and, and, you know, You know, as much as your money will allow, it's totally free for me to sing crappy recordings in my bathroom, you know, a different experience to make that record, but it is nice to scratch those different itches. Stephen: Yeah. It's nice to, to go through the creative process and have to reveal draft one. And it's nice to go through the creative process and not have to reveal it until draft five. Sarah: And the albums I've done, like. Anyone who liked any of those albums could go back and find just about every song in its draft once date because most of the albums are songs from the challenge. Stephen: Okay. Sarah: yeah, so then I am choosier about what I share with the album. I like to hold on to that kind of until it's really, really, really ready because, because I feel like I share a lot otherwise. So, yeah, Stephen: Exactly. I think that approach is really great. And there's a lot to be learned from that creative process going in both directions that it's freeing [00:21:00] to do that to some extent.okay. Going back to your background though. I want to ask a little bit about your Nashville experience, just out of curiosity, because there's all kinds of people that are like, I want to move, I want to do the Nashville thing. I want to do LA, whatever. what was your plan? Like, how did you approach that? What did you do while you were there? How did that work for you? Sarah: Well, first I would say, do it. I just say, do it. My plan was, like I said, I worked, I had like a specific period of time that I worked two jobs. And then a third, and I'd saved up 3, 000 and I had a friend and we found an apartment and we got there. We didn't know what we were doing. She had made a connection with a temp agency and I was like, I went, Oh, I went to bartending school. That's the other way I prepared. I went to the Minnesota school of bartending over on university Avenue in St. Paul and spent my summer like with these index cards, learning how to make, you know, the basic drinks And so we showed up in Nashville with just. You know, we had gone on one [00:22:00] scouting trip just to like, make sure we liked the town and we liked it. And I, we drove by this like restaurant that was very close to our house and it had trees growing from this roof. And I was like, I think I'll go apply there. And so I applied there and. Cause I thought, well, this is the good way to do it. You're going to get a, a job at a restaurant. Oh, the other thing I did to prepare is I'd read a book that was essentially, you know, how to move to Nashville if you don't know anything. And it was like, you have to write songs. And at that point I'd really just been a singer and an appreciator of songs. I love, my favorite artist was Alison Krauss and she. Mostly interprets other people's work. So I really thought that was the way to go, but this book said I should write songs because the culture of writing was strong. So before I left, I wrote three songs with a friend and we recorded them and put them on a demo and I brought that demo with me too. so I showed up in town. 3, 000, 25 copies of a CD and a desire [00:23:00] to mix drinks at a restaurant. And it worked out great because I wasn't attached to anything. You know, I didn't have vision of, Oh, I will do this and then this and then this. We both were pretty, my friend Kristen and I, like, this is an adventure. And I remember we had two apartments that we lived in while we were there. But the first one we painted, like, Why not on the wall and then why walk when you can fly which is a Mary Chapman Carpenter quote and you know I think we were just there to see what it was and I'm glad that's how we Moved there because it was very easy to then meet. I mean everyone's doing music there, right? I think Nashville probably more so than LA and I would guess New York also. It's very, it's pretty condensed. I shouldn't say very, it was very condensed. Now it's fairly physical, like physically condensed. It's not a huge sprawl [00:24:00] and everyone's involved in music. So wherever you go, you definitely talking to someone who wants to write a song mostly. Now it's a lot of healthcare there too, but, but, it was just really easy to meet friends who were down to try. Co writing or, you know, and we went to see a ton of music and Stephen: Okay. Sarah: perform and the way I did that was I made two very excellent friends right away, Corinne and Tracy, and we wrote together and Corinne was farther along in her time there. And so she and she's incredibly generous. when she would book a round because that was the most frequent way to perform there. Or like, I think when you're getting started is a songwriter round, which in case that's, words you haven't heard before, it's not generally in the round, but like in a circle, but it's three to four songwriters who would share a song and then a song and then a song and another song. And then you go back to the first person and you do it again. and so that would be the first. [00:25:00] way that I performed and then I joined my friend Corinne's band and sang harmony for her and played horrible tambourine, and just had a really wonderful time. They have Nashville songwriters, uh, NSAI is there and that was a way to kind of get some education if you wanted it or to attend song feedback sessions, which I didn't do a ton of, but you know, my days would be writing songs and my nights would be waiting tables. It was good. Stephen: Yeah. Did you end up recording it all there or was it performing and learning still that Sarah: Um, nothing that I kept,we had friends that recorded. I had a friend. I made friends with, some engineers, one who is an assistant engineer on a lot of my favorite Alison Krauss recordings, and he would do some work that he would hire me for like background vocals. we did some demos of some songs, but nothing, nothing really, I waited until I got back here to do a lot of Stephen: Got it. Got it. And then once you got back here, you said [00:26:00] you started at, you know, Dunn Bros and figuring that out, which had to have been fairly easy if you'd been performing a little bit in Nashville. Sarah: Yes. But I would say in Nashville, because I did rounds all the time, I had not done sets of my own music, and I also had not done covers because at least when I was there, if you were on the cover path, like in Nashville, if you wanted to be a superstar singer, you might take the cover path and play lower broad and, and do that. But I knew I wanted to write songs and I, I don't know, that just never called to me. So I, it was the first time that I was playing. playing like a set of music that was covers and originals interspersed. And it was like the first time I stood as myself and kind of, let a show. Cause I would say in the rounds, you're. Often responding to what else is going on rather than, Hey, here I Stephen: Right. Right. Sarah: so there was definitely a newness to that and a huge learning curve. [00:27:00] Nope. Stephen: Minnesota, you get into the city, you're performing, you start making records. were you touring at all? Sarah: I didn't do any touring until after I didn't do anything remotely looking like touring until 2016. So that was after, my 2015 album, ordinary things. And, Yeah, my kids were already around a little bit and Yeah, Stephen: how did you put together a band once you got back into town and like find the team, so to speak? Sarah: love that question because I love that story in my life. It's all been super organic and very like, you know, looking back on it now, you're like, Oh, this person led to that person led to this person. when I first moved home, my husband played guitar with me cause he's a was a good guitar player. He's an excellent guitar player. He just hasn't touched the guitar now in years because he does other things. But, and my brother would play bass and then my brother's best [00:28:00] friend, Eric Bloomquist would play guitar also with me. And then my husband was in law school, so he had to stop playing guitar. And so it was me and Eric and sometimes my brother. And then I found, I was singing in someone else's band and playing guitar, backup guitar. I don't, that was through MySpace when I moved back, her name was Brianna Ruby. She's great. And through her, I met Rebecca Paddock, who is a violinist and a harmony singer. And Rebecca agreed to play with me. So that was awesome. Then Rebecca was getting ready to move and Eric was getting ready to open a studio. And so it was kind of this. shifting time. And my dad offered to look on the internet for me to someone to find a guitar player because I had, I had a young, young kid and I just didn't know how to do it because while I was out there performing, I didn't know a lot of musicians. I was sort of in these isolated shows where I wasn't running, I wasn't playing like triple bills with other bands. So I wasn't meeting a lot of [00:29:00] people, other than other moms with young kids, you know, they didn't want to be in my band. so my dad found these two guitar players, one of whom, when he showed up to meet with me, I realized I'd been his teacher. And I was like, that's probably not a good idea. And then the other was this gentleman, Thomas Nordland, and his playing was beautiful. He had, there was one video he'd posted that kind of gave me hot club feelings. Have you ever gone to see a hot club? Hot club is like a, It started in the 20s in France. Django Reinhardt is this guitarist extraordinaire from that era. And when we lived in Nashville, it's a very specific sound. And my husband and I would go and see hot clubs and we just loved them. So I think I inclined towards Thomas playing because it just gave me enough of that vibe. And Thomas and I just kind of got to know each other. And then at some point I needed a teacher. new bass player because my brother was moving to New York. And so he was [00:30:00] like, well, how about my friend Andrew Foreman? And then at some point I was like, well, I think we need a drummer. And Andrew's like, well, we've got. Zach Schmidt, he's my friend. And I was like, yeah, let's play with your friend. And then when like Zach had to step away, I was like, well, who else? They said, well, try our friend Lars. And so my general thing has been I love playing with you. Who do you want to play with? And so Thomas now has moved to Mexico. go Thomas. And it was, at one point found his friend, Dave Meyling, who like now plays with us and produced the last album and Andrew moved to Greece. Go Andrew. And so we, a friend, Nick Salisbury. And so even when I'm looking for subs, it's always just like, okay, well, who do you want to play with? Because what I've learned is like, if they're happy, I'm for sure going to be happy. Stephen: right, right. Yeah, and it's such a common story. it's a common question and a common story.even though I think sometimes that can be a [00:31:00] frustrating answer of like, it just sort of happens. It falls together, but you know, the question of how do I, how do I get started? How do I get this band going? What do I do next? And it might be ask your dad to look on the internet for you. Sarah: And it's a lot of saying yes. I mean, like it's a lot of saying yes to what someone else, what someone else suggests, right? Like one of the principles that's been very, enlarging for me in the last decade or so is the improv idea of yes and like when you're in a partnership and someone does a thing in improv you say yes and blah blah blah blah blah you know and we're taking a train to Mozambique you know whatever like that's the spirit and I think anytime I've leaned into that it's benefited me you know with all of those people that I've gotten to play it was someone else's You know, here, what about this person? I just say yes. And that has been good. Stephen: Yeah. Sarah: So little tiny leaps of faith. Stephen: Yeah, I think a lot of it is trial and error, unfortunately, [00:32:00] or fortunately, depending on how it works out for you. and just trusting and trusting your gut and the people around you and just trying to cultivate the best relationships you can. Cool. Well, I want to talk about some of the stuff that you're doing outside of music. Well, it's connected to music, but it's not just recording and performing songs. first and foremost, toilet tunes, because you've been at that for a while now and it's a great series. is and how it began. Sarah: Toilet Tunes is a YouTube series. airing Fridays at noon currently on a weekly basis where an artist and I, generally local, but I've had some people from out of town, we under rehearse a cover song, we sing it, and then I interview them in my big green bathroom. I tape it on my phone. I throw a couple of like, credits on via iMovie and I put it out to the world. It's very, very lo fi. and it started again with a lot of yes saying, you know, I have since started [00:33:00] things on purpose, but Toilet Tunes was not that way. I was kick starting an album and trying to come up with tiers, you know, rewards. And I wanted to offer that I would sing a dedication song of something like for a certain amount of money, because I'm of the Casey Kasem generation. So I thought that would be fun. And I was already putting out videos of me singing in a bathroom through my original songs, because the reason I started singing in the bathroom is cause it's the one room in my house with locked doors for my children and my puppies.so. So, I had put out this offer and I had a dear friend from high school who said yes. I would like to, support your record at that level. But can I actually sing the song with you in your bathroom? Sure. You know, why not? And because she was someone, we'd done theater together. It just seemed really fun. She picked the song and we just put it out on Facebook, like immediately. And you know, people [00:34:00] liked it. said nice things about it. And then. Another musician said to me a few weeks later, like, Hey, could I ever sing in your big green bathroom or your green bathroom? We didn't call it that yet. And I was like, and it happened again, you know? So the first year I probably did eight episodes and maybe two of them were me saying like, Hey, can we do this? But most of them are people just offering. And that was really cool. And it was always very spur of the moment. At that time we would just tape it and put it right out and that kept on that way till 2020 and I started increasing how many there were, you know, they sometimes were weekly, sometimes it, but it was fluid and then Stephen: Low commitment, sort of, Sarah: low commitment It was just during the day that was the only thing it had to be was when my kids were more likely to be at school and, very fun and just the song, but then COVID happened and my bathroom was not that big. And so [00:35:00] we try the tunes, went on hiatus and about a year and a half into that, I started really, really, really missing. I did a series of it. I called them toilet tunes like from the big green backyard. So where we stood outside and we were distant and but I started missing connecting with other artists as a lot of us were. And so I devised this idea. I had this thought on a run. I was listening to Seth Godin. Is he someone you're familiar with? And I don't know, I was listening to him, but I was also like daydreaming and I just had this thought like, Oh, I should start. A new series with the split, interview. It's called, Hey, I miss you. Hmm. My friend Graham is my first guest. Like it just, it all like popped into my head right away. I had two questions that I wanted to formulate it around. And so they would show up and we would do the split screen interview. They would play two songs of theirs, like throughout the, and the, you know, audio's crummy and you can never count on the tech working, but [00:36:00] it was really fun. And. that was my first dalliance with programming the episode, so I would tape it and then put it out on a scheduled time because that was something that Seth Godin was talking about. It's like having something dependable and I, we needed dependability in that world. The world was changing all the time. So I liked having something I could say, you don't know what's going on this whole week, but you do know that, Hey, I miss you will be there at 10 o'clock. And people, the same people would show up to have their lunch and watch the show. And that was really, really fun. And so I did that. And then when it was time to have people in the bathroom again, I was kind of sad to let go of the interview portion of, Hey, I miss you because I loved learning about these people that I thought I knew. You know, but I still, there's still room to learn more and so then Toilet Tunes came back in its current form, which is we pre tape the episodes, but it does air Fridays at noon. It is us doing a cover and then we do the interview [00:37:00] and it's just great, great fun. Stephen: I think it's smart I think it, is an obvious community builder I'm sure it's just enjoyable for Sarah: Oh my gosh, it's so fun. I could go out and see a lot of music and try to connect with people and maybe talk a little, but there's like a martini shaker in the background and a coffee frother. And, it's hard to hear. And it's hard to, you know, you've got that pre or post show energy. And so I'm a daytime person. So I love the thought of like, I'm sitting with you musician who I admire in the sunlight and we're having a little bit of a talk and you know, it's a good thing. Stephen: Yeah, I mean, going to shows is great, particularly when you're young and you want to be out late. because you don't do a whole lot of talking during the show. You do it after the show. And so it just gets to be later and later and later. And nothing wrong with that. We've both. I've done that and been there, but it becomes more limiting if you have kids or you have a, an early job or just other commitments in your life that don't allow you to go out all the time. [00:38:00] so finding other means to connect with people is really important. And I love that you just, no matter what sort of limitations you have in terms of time or you know, anything you just work and like, what's the most creative thing I can do right now. Sarah: Yeah. Stephen: It was, I can invite people over and record 25 minute episodes in my bathroom and make it work. And it's, it's a really cool series. So my next question is how has it impacted your career? Sarah: I mean, it's made it possible for me to meet people easily because again, all the limitations of the live performance meeting. It's just, it's hard, you know, and life, you have lots of things to do. So it's allowed me the opportunity to collaborate with people. I never would have been able to otherwise. Um, I love that. and I, I'm super honored that people say yes, because I know, you know, back to our perfectionist, like talking, I'm asking people to come and share something that they hardly know, and that is [00:39:00] not going to be edited and, That's a big ask and sometimes they don't even know me. I mean there are Stephen: people say no? Sarah: I've had one or two people who say like it just doesn't feel right for them, you know And I totally I love a no. I love a no because it helps me trust someone else's yes So I really respect that people have a level of comfort with what they're putting out, you know, into the world. so it's changed my life in that way that it's allowed me to get to know people that I wouldn't have otherwise get to know. It's allowed me to collaborate with people I wouldn't get to know otherwise. It has taught me so much about technical things or about some kind of like small business, even though it's not really a business, but you know, that sort Stephen: Well, you have sponsors Sarah: have a sponsor, I have a sponsor, Stephen: Hmm. Sarah: yeah, and then I think the other piece of it is that shown me how bringing people together from, you know, we, from all over the place is possible in a virtual way, like I know who's going to show up for Toilet Tunes. And I know that Wiley is usually going to be there and he's in Washington DC [00:40:00] and Roberto from Miami and, you know, David from Anoka, like, we're all going to hang out together and we might never all meet in real life, but there's just such a joy to me that we can hang out. live streaming in the pandemic was super special to me. And I think we really grew a group of people who enjoy just seeing each other's names pop up. so I don't know. One of the reasons we make music, I think, is to connect with people and to help people feel seen and connected and, and thankful. I think having a weekly hangout is a good way to do that. Stephen: Agreed. How has the show grown over the years? How long has it taken to get it to, you know, like, was it a really, really slow start and then you saw it or has it just been steady and slow? Like, Sarah: By any, like, viewership metrics, it's actually gone down since I switched it to YouTube because it used to be just the song, sorry, it used to be just the song. And it used to be shared on [00:41:00] Facebook where the sharing was very easy. And so I was only asking people to watch four minutes, maybe six minutes tops. And people, they were a little goofier. People shared them a lot more readily. So in that way, it actually hasn't grown. I think it's deepened, which I will take that because post pandemic, I just decided I didn't want to To be on Facebook anymore. And I have yet to learn reels. I have yet to like figure out a way to put it any, I'm not on TikTok. Stephen: not? Why, why'd you take it off Facebook? Sarah: because I wanted to go the longer form and. I wanted it to be mine a little bit more. YouTube feels a little like I can control the sharing more. I got increasingly disappointed with the way the algorithm would like share some things and not other things. And I don't know. I just liked the cleanliness of here's the link it's here and you can meet me there at noon and I Stephen: You get more of a channel like with YouTube versus Facebook. yeah, Sarah: if my [00:42:00] goal was growing viewers, there's a lot I could be doing. there are days where I'm like, maybe I should make that my goal. Currently my goal is not that, you know, Stephen: Well, yeah, that's actually one of my questions. So what is the, what is the end Sarah: just connecting to Stephen: Okay. Sarah: the other thing that I do, cause I have this blog also that I've been doing in the last year called about that song as a performing musician, I get, as we mentioned earlier, exhausted by it. Here, please listen to my thing here, please share my thing here. Stephen: Yeah. Sarah: And so I've wanted to offer other musicians things like I can share it, you know When someone comes on toilet tunes when they leave my house, I'm like, here's the deal. It's going on and Friday at noon I would love it if you could promote if you could share it I'd love it if you could be there for the live viewing and also if it Doesn't work for you right now because of where you are and some sort of publicity cycle. That's fine Let me lift it for you. Like I want to offer that because You I believe in what people are doing and I, you know, that's my goal is that there's other ways to get other musicians out there, you know, that [00:43:00] again, going back to the people I know that are going to tune into toilet tunes, like I'm going to connect them to their next favorite artist. Great. Stephen: Got it. Sarah: I want. yeah, I don't watch the numbers probably like a smart business person would. I've not met the threshold to monetize on YouTube. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would like Stephen: Yeah, I don't know what that is, even. I'm, I'm, I know I'm not Sarah: right. Well, I have enough subscribers, but I don't have, so if anyone's watching this, you need a 10, 000 watch hours within a calendar year Stephen: Okay. Sarah: and the calendar year resets every day. So it's like something would need to uptick. I'd need one thing to get like a good viral push in order to meet that threshold. It would be delightful. Stephen: you hit it once, do you have to maintain it or does it just know that because I haven't hit it yet. I'd like to learn if somebody wants to watch it. If somebody wants to watch, you know, all the episodes of Toilet Tunes and then share them, then maybe we'd Well, we'll certainly be linking over to it, so if you've got extra [00:44:00] time, go Sarah: Right. You don't even have to watch it. Just press play. Stephen: Just put it on another That's right. People do that. But I encourage you to watch it because there are a lot of really great artists on there and, the format's fun. I think there's a lot of personality in it. and you know, I think it's also inspiring to see other artists that are trying to do the content thing and try to show up all the time. And you have done that, you know, you have stayed on the radar for a long, long time. You've put out a lot of records. you've seen a generation come through at this point, right? Sarah: A couple. I'm definitely feeling that, like, look at how the, the youth is like, really amazing Stephen: right. Where you can see a new artist and go, Oh, it's you're in that moment. And it's hard to explain. I guess what I'm getting at is that. when you break out and you have some of that excitement and people are in and there's opportunities coming and all that, there's buzz around you and all that. I think you've [00:45:00] probably felt that yourself at times at different times as, as an award winning, Sarah: that always feels very nice. I don't feel like I ever broke out. I think my story is a little different, but I've witnessed the breakout for other people. Stephen: Maybe even taking the term breakout out of it of just like where there's some buzz and there's some hype and there's opportunities coming in and things like that. And you're riding that wave of like, this feels easy. And then that always fades at some point. It always fades. And I think that's a lot of times where artists then sort of disappear. And because it stopped being easy and natural and organic. And I think that that cycle happens faster now. I think it's. it's even hard to get the buzzy part to even start as much as it used to be because it's just how many people are doing it, how many people are online, how many people have access to doing it. and for better or worse, it's just how things are now. And so it's those from my [00:46:00] opinion, it's those that are able to find ways to keep showing up. And it doesn't always mean that you're going to be able to make a record every year or, you know, do the things that you would prefer to do every year. And It's about being creative and finding other things and that that's where the longevity and the sustainability come into place. And I think you've just done that in multiple ways. Toilet tunes, songwriter workshops, the, the blog now that you're writing for and. And other miscellaneous things, I'm sure, but yeah, and I just think that that's such a healthy and smart way to keep a career going and has it just been because you're sort of insatiable and you want to create a bunch of things, or has it been conscious of like, I need to create something new. Sarah: No, it usually, blessedly, comes from a desire to connect. I mean, the new thing generally comes from some wisp of a desire. And then I listen to that desire. [00:47:00] I think that, you know, way early on, when I started to really dedicate to songwriting and album making and all of those things as a mom, A why for me became like showing my kids how to keep showing up at this thing, you know, and also I don't want to, I don't feel like I have other marketable skills to go get a different job. This is my job. So, keeping that why in front all the time, like being conscious of, of That has been helpful, I have two things that I do on social media that aren't even a thing, but they are. And they were both born out of sanity, like gratitude, needing for my own mental health to dig into gratitude. And one was started in May of 2020. I run every day and I started taking a picture of a sun, my, of the run, like the sky or the forest that I run through And sharing it on Instagram and writing some little caption with a heart emoji because I needed to stop, pause, and like, see the beauty in [00:48:00] this place that I was going to see again tomorrow. I needed to be reminded that everything is always changing, even if we're, even if you're just running through the same forest every day. And so I started doing that and I've done that for You know, four years now. And I have wanted to, I've been like, Oh, this is silly. And as soon as I'm like, I don't know why I'm still doing this. Someone will be like, I'm really grateful that you post the sunshine post, you know, because it just like helps me to know this. And I was like, That's why I do it. I do it for you. And then about a year and a half after that, I was feeling real funky. My kids had, I was just another period of time that was of like deep change. And I was like, I need to get in touch with gratitude because gratitude Bar none is like the pathway to greater ease in my body or, you know, potentially joy, if we can get that far. so I sat down one Friday and, Within hey, I miss you. I would always ask this question. Tell me something good That's one I still do toilet shoots every time tell me something good cuz I love that song by Chaka Khan Tell me something good. Can't get over it. Would [00:49:00] love to sing it someday. But So I just wrote down tell me something good and I put five pictures of good things I saw in the world that day that week and I said does anybody want to share it with me and people They told me they're good things. And so I showed up the next Friday and I was like, I do it again. And then I just kept doing it. And at some point I was like, well, now I'm committed to doing this. I didn't think I would be committed to doing this. And that has no financial benefit. You know, there's no, there's nothing about that other than. Gretchen's probably gonna show up and tell me your thing and I love hearing what was good for Gretchen and you know, sometimes Doyle and There's a guy from Australia that will tell me what's good in Australia and it's amazing So to your point these little things that I started to keep showing up They always come out of like a real, you know, Sarah person What do I need? What do I want? What am I looking for? What am I craving? the idea that maybe someone else is craving that same kind of connection right now. Stephen: Of course, somebody else is the world's a huge place. Everyone's going through stuff. [00:50:00] Everyone has different needs that are going to be similar to yours. Um,and the thing that you have to keep in mind that no matter how small it might feel to you, it's probably really important to somebody else. And then if you put your business hat on and you start thinking about how to market it a little bit, it'll actually grow. And You know, sometimes it happens automatically without trying, but a little bit of effort to have, like, Hmm, how could I make this more accessible or more widely discoverable so that it can help more people or share this feeling with more people? And that's what we try to do with our music. It's exactly what we're trying to do. It's just now through another piece of content that's probably easier and free to make. Sarah: And for me, I'm very easily pleased. So like, is it one person that this matters to? Sweet. I meant it for you, you know, I've thought that it might be smart to move some of those things to one place. Like what if I did it as a website thing, would that be smarter? But I fall down on, [00:51:00] it's just, this is where people are. Yeah. And so I'm just going to meet them there. I don't feel the urge at this point to like either of those things that I shared for you because they are this authentic desire.I mean, tell me something good actually takes like a fair amount of work because I'm very like, I sit down and I scroll my thing and I think, well, what were the five good things? And I link to people's music. If it was a good, you know, recently, do you know Dylan Hicks? He's a local Stephen: That sounds familiar, but I'm not like, I don't know his music, but I've seen the Sarah: Someone turned me on to his song from 2021 called Tyler Tharp, and I love that song so much. And so it was telling me something good. So then I linked to it. And my hope, my dream is that someone else discovered that song and it was what they needed, you know, or I read a lot. So I linked to books and so it takes a fair amount of time and there have been times where I'm like, should I be engaging with this more with a business hat? But the heart of it is always becomes what's more important to me. Stephen: sure. But I mean, all of those things would just [00:52:00] be like, put them in a newsletter and Sarah: Yeah. And I do have a monthly newsletter as well. In fact, today was the day where I spent five hours making sure that was in order and linking to who I'm loving and Yeah. I think that's great. And then that, then has a, a business, objective at the end of it too, that you can grow that. I have a Patreon community and that's actually where, I mean, if we're talking business hats, like, and I have not done work to grow that other than like, let that be pretty organic, but having the Patreon community. Those are people that have a monthly subscription of three to 10 usually. that's like what I consider like, that's my, why I can pay, do toilet tunes. It's like, that's my, that's my, they're my bosses. That's what I would say. They're my bosses. Stephen: I'm glad you brought that up because I wanted to ask you Patreon. when did you start it and why? Sarah: Started it in 2019. So it's just about to have its five year anniversary because I was getting ready to make all mine, which was, going to be my third album in this kind of like these albums [00:53:00] that go together in my heart and I didn't want to kickstart. Kickstarting always makes me kind of want to puke a little bit. It's worth it, but you know, but I just didn't have it in me, but the Patreon model felt true because I already was doing steady releasing of things. At that point, it was just the new songs and the toilet tunes. But I think for a lot of people, they get scared by Patreon because they're like, Oh, I have to produce more content. And I was like, well, I do produce one specific thing for them every week, which is a love letter. But it is what I would do anyways. And I tied it in with that album, and anyone who joined within a certain period of time got to have their name in the album as a producer. And that gave it a really nice push early on. what was amazing about it was because I started that, Pre COVID, like those were the people that showed up to all the live streams. I mean, that was the group that really started to feel, connected. And when I was heart wise, you know, kind of despondent or down because wasn't getting to perform for [00:54:00] people. I already had that group of humans that I could picture their faces or picture their names. And so I could sing for them. I could stare at my own face on the phone. But I could know that I was singing, you know, for Joel and Beth and that mattered, Stephen: So you said that you, you haven't done anything to grow it or whatever. Sarah: not really. I was thinking I guess should, because it's been five years and I want to celebrate them. And honestly, the amount of things that I've told you that I do, like they're just for so many hours in the day. And sometimes I'm like, wow, because I'm also performing a ton. And, I'd like to grow it. And I thought like, Oh, do I put, tell me something good over there? And I was like, no, cause I want everyone to access it. You know, we'll think about it. I follow a lot of people on Substack and I am familiar with the model of this post is open for everybody. This post is locked. Stephen: Yeah, so maybe restructuring some of it just to be, yeah. Sarah: yeah, we'll see. I don't know. Stephen: How has Patreon changed your [00:55:00] career or hasn't it? Sarah: Yeah, no, it's made music making more viable, through a period when there was no income, you know, it's not like it is some giant sum of income, but it definitely. Helps, but it helps. but more important, it's like, it's so easy as an artist to get, Oh, should I still be doing this? Look at, they said I should do it. You know, that's, that's like the game. That's the trick for me. when I started the Patreon, I painted hearts. on these pieces of paper and I paid it a hundred and I wrote everyone who signed up, I wrote their name on a heart and I stuck that, on a bulletin board. so I have this like tangible reminder on, you know, the downest day, like, look it, these are the people who said, keep going. Stephen: Yeah, Sarah: so that I think that's the relationships that I have with those people. That's changed my career because. It's really valuable, just like my kids are my why, they're my why, you know, to know [00:56:00] why, to know why you're doing something. And I'm not saying that I'm impeccable in this every day, but, but it sure helps get through the humps and through the natural cycles. And, I have this. coming year or this year that we're in right now, I've been doing a once a month show at the White Squirrel, which is a bar in St. Paul. Patreon means it's, well, financially it's again, a buffer that I can pay musicians because that's kind of the deal for that show is like, I'm going to maybe pay out right there. and if we're just, if we're getting nitty gritty, cause I don't think there's any reason not to, but more than that, It's again, all these people are meeting in real life, you know, like now, Paul is meeting, like, the Dirkies, and you know, Gus is always in charge of the tip jar, and Rick Graff, who's this amazing human who runs my merch all the time, you know, it's it's Getting to see [00:57:00] people meet each other is something that really lights me up. And so that's been another beautiful outlying of the patron. I would have never have had the courage to say, Oh, I'm going to have a series of my own. at a show, like if I didn't, if they'd already not show me that they show up, you know? Mm Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. The community building, which is what we've been talking about all episode, although not necessarily always directly, it has so many things that contribute to a career. It has, obviously it can have financial benefits of Patreon backers, right? And then it can have just the emotional benefits of, Being able to see these people want me to keep going. These people are here for me. And then it can have other rewards of just indirect of seeing people come together are things that light you up in terms of connection and meaning and things like that. And you found ways to build community in [00:58:00] different ways whether it's More anonymous and online and whoever finds it or direct people that are directly supporting you through Patreon and coming to shows and things like that. But being able to, Have both where you have one that's maybe a little bit more like discoverable social media It's out in that ether and then one that's a little bit more private like a patreon where there's names and faces And you know the people and there there's in real life connections. There Is great and that all leads to things being more sustainable Ultimately, I know another thing that's really important to you that I wanted to talk about a little bit directly before we wrap this all up is how you also support other people. And you've said this all along of just like liking how it helps other people and that really that's the motivation behind all of these things is that what you, what it does for other people more so than what it's doing for you. but I know that you also do like some songwriter workshop stuff too, or [00:59:00] is that just the prompt thing or Sarah: uh, in the last two years, I've started doing that a little bit and it's actually something I'd really like to learn more about and do more because I think, you know, I mentioned this at the top of the episode, songwriting is super fun. Like I, the active songwriting, just like the active singing, like this is where I play. This is where I like, I get really excited and I feel like alive and if I can help someone else tap into that, I would love to do that, you know, and I think you mentioned the word sustainable and that's really important to me because I think I've watched a lot of. Like you said, highs and lows and burnouts. And when I offered the workshops last year, one of the focuses was like, how can I help you find a sustainable way to be creative where you aren't as susceptible to the burnout potential, but instead you say, you know, come what may, this is just part of, this is just part of me, [01:00:00] you know, this is just what I do. rather than the songwriting thing. Workshops that I've offered being anything about like, here's the nuts and bolts of how you write a song. It's much more like, here's how you tap into what you have to say in your heart. Here's how you get over the voice that says you shouldn't, you know, and here's how you keep showing up at a scary blank page. yeah, I love talking about individuals with Oh, this is the song you wrote. Like, well, we could do this. And like, if you want to see if it conveys your message stronger, if we move this part here. I mean, that's something I'd also like to do more of because I find like feedback really helpful. Myself. So, Stephen: Well, I mean, at that point it's sort of like teaching songwriting or co writing and, and, or even kind of producing a song and things like that. And obviously doing a lot of that's going to make you better at it as well. Sarah: Hopefully. Yes. I mean, you teach something, you're going to learn something for sure. Stephen: These workshops, are they, how, [01:01:00] how are they put on? Is this something public? Like what Sarah: Not yet. I mean, they've been, last year I got to sing at two festivals that offered, that let me program. One is Lute Song, which is amazing and is back this year. And Molly Mayer is a big community. I mean, she's just an amazing human and she knows how to bring people together. And, she let me kind of like. program, a little, I offered some mentoring there and I offered, a special concert. So I called it the Wonder Wander. And so anyone could go to that. They just have to go to Lutesong. It'll be the middle of week in July and they should totally go. It's amazing. It's in Luteson. And then I was at a, another festival called Story Hill Fest where I taught a creative sustainability workshop. And then I've done some online through, Cold Facts, Wordsmith, and that might happen again. I don't know. So it's something I'm interested in for sure. Stephen: Well, I think it's a great idea and you should. Go bigger with it. I'm sure there's demand for that sort of access to you and to learning from [01:02:00] somebody like you Sarah: Well, that's kind of you to say. I would, I would like to do, to do more. So. Stephen: Yeah Well, I want to be conscious of your time and I know you've got a show coming up too so we can wrap this up But before I let you go As somebody who's made a lot of stuff, you know, you've made a lot of records, you've made a lot of content, you've made YouTube series, you've wrote podcasts or blogs, You've created over and over and over and over again. so this podcast is largely a lot of people that are also creators, of course, but a lot of people that are getting started and trying to figure it out, trying to connect with other people. What has been your secret to making all this happen? Agreed Sarah: the secrets yet and now, now you're asking what's the secret?trust your people. Find good people, trust your people. That's the first secret. let yourself be surprised and delighted. And keep showing up. Is it okay that I had three secrets? Stephen: more the merrier. Sarah: And sing in your bathroom. Stephen: It's [01:03:00] sitting in your bathroom. Well, if people want to follow you online, connect with you, see a show, where can they find more information? Sarah: Yeah. SarahMorrisMusic. com I'm Sarah with an H. that's got the most stuff that would take you to my Patreon. That would take you to Spotify or Apple if you wanted to be a listener. then Facebook is there and YouTube is there and Instagram. I don't do anything that starts with T, so we've not Tick Tocked, we don't tweet, but, or X or whatever, Stephen: Great, I will put all your links in the show notes and I really appreciate you doing this Sarah: Thank you, Steven. This is super fun. Stephen: for everybody listening. Thank you. If this was your first episode, thanks for checking it out. share it with a friend that you think it might help. You know, this shows four local musicians here in the Twin Cities. So, you know, if you know somebody that might benefit from this, please, Share it around. And I'm also always open for other guest suggestions, other topic suggestions. You know, they're [01:04:00] usually really helpful. So feel free to send me an email or a DM. All my info will be in the show notes as well. thanks for listening until next time.