Ep. 28: Packaging THE PITCH: Tips on Branding, EPKs, and Emailing Venues with David Ostrom

Stephen: [00:00:00] Welcome to secrets from the scene. My name is Stephen Helvig and I'm your host. I'm a local producer here in the twin cities. And this podcast is all about connecting our local music scene and sharing insights and stories and tips and tricks and all that good stuff so that we can learn from each other and also build our scene, build our community today. I've got David Ostrom here. David has a, an entertainment and booking agency called Ostrom entertainment.David has previously worked with the MMC, the Minnesota music coalition, and So many of you probably know of him or have heard his name before, because he would book a lot of acts in town. the MMC has recently shut down. And so David has opened up his own company and is doing a lot of things that he was doing there, but, offering more services, which is what we're going to talk about. But the The subject that we're going to hit on later in the episode is sort of how to package your pitch email, how to present your band to a new venue that you don't have [00:01:00] a contact with and all the sort of strategy that goes into making that pitch a good one. David does that on kind of a day to day basis, essentially. And so he's got a lot of insight there and we're going to talk about things like. Branding and email tactics, different resources that he's hip to and more. So this is going to be a great, really, really helpful episode. If you've been trying to do your own booking and, also just a cool introduction to another booking agency in town. So please welcome David Ostrom. David: Hello. Stephen: Thanks for being here, man. David: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. This is a sweet space and a really sweet opportunity. I'm, I'm stoked. Stephen: Yeah, cool. I'm glad you got to come out here. And for anybody that doesn't know, we're, we're in a healthy productions studio, which is near Lake Minnetonka. not far from downtown Excelsior. And, we're, we're sitting in the live room. It's, was previously that it's an underground room. It's a big room. [00:02:00] It's was built as a squash ball court. That's underneath the house. Yeah. And so the, it got converted into a studio in the nineties and, makes for a great live room now. David: Indeed. Stephen: yeah, David: Looking forward to the conversation. Stephen: sure, man. Well, you know, I'm actually one of those people that had kind of like heard your name before because of the MMC, but this is the first time we're meeting. how long were you working at the MMC David: I was there from 2018 through this past, fall. So the end of August, 2023 was, was my, my end there and it was a great five year run, so spent about five years with the organization. Stephen: and were you doing booking the whole time? David: I wore a lot of hats with the organization. It started out as an unpaid internship and my primary role was. Primarily booking, I handled the airport stage that we essentially inherited from McNally Smith. So that was my primary role with, the [00:03:00] as an intern. And then I stuck through a lot of staff changes and a lot of challenges. Obviously, the pandemic was a big shift for things. And ended up, kind of getting involved in more work. So I did some social media. I was engaged in workshop programming. I also helped facilitate mentorship at the end there. so I, I wore a lot of hats, had my hands in several different projects, and it was a really awesome experience because everything that I did for the Minnesota music coalition was designed to support local music and local artists. And it was a super rewarding gig. I I'm gonna miss the MMC dearly. Stephen: You know, is there any reason why it ended up closing? Is that public knowledge? David: It is not public knowledge. I think there were a number of of challenges that ended up popping up that I'm not entirely hip to. I mean, keep in mind at at my peak there. I was putting up, you know, 300 to 350 [00:04:00] shows a year, which is a considerable amount of work. And, you know, my head was very much down in the books or in, in the laptop for most of the day. so it did hit me. As a surprise, when I found out that the organization was dissolving, that said, you know, nonprofits always run into funding challenges. And I think that the pandemic also had a major impact on on being able to secure funding and just it provided a lot of other obstacles that kind of stuck around as we progressed through post pandemic life. Stephen: That makes sense, that it would have something to do with that, but it's sad to see it go, unfortunately, but hopefully more, resources will pop up in its place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, between you starting a booking agency, that'll take care of some of that. David: That's exactly what I was thinking when I got it off the ground, you know, it's, it's, it's my way of continuing this important work of platforming artists across the state. Stephen: yeah, well, good for you. let's, let's talk a little bit about just your [00:05:00] background, just so people get to know you a little bit better outside of the, the job at MMC. you've played in local bands. You've done, you know, give us the, give us the rundown David: indeed. I've been a performing artist since I was in middle school, and I remember the very early days of playing the 400 bar, if anyone remembers that. Stephen: in middle school. David: Yeah, yeah, I had a, I was in a band with my older brother at the time and he was able to kind of get me in the building. we, I'm not sure if I was technically supposed to be in there, but it, you know, at that time there were some shows where I, I had to sit outside of the club in between my sets and things like that. So they were definitely, careful about having me in there, but it was my first kind of foot in the door of. Playing shows and and I fell in love with it. It was an amazing experience. and then in high school, I ended up joining a band with my older brother who [00:06:00] was at M. S. U. Mankato at the time, and I was going down there almost every weekend playing shows and Mankato is a high schooler. And then I got to college, naturally went down to Mankato to continue that band and things happened and the band fizzled out and I had no idea how I was going to continue this. I knew I had a passion for it. I was an undecided student and, I sat down with the music department and said, Hey, is this right for me? And they said, yeah, you should do this. So I actually started to study music at MSU Mankato. I was a music industry student with a marketing minor and. Through that experience, I, I just got involved in so much. I founded a student run record label called Mavhouse Records, which was a recognized student organization. And we had some artists that we were working with and we were putting on events throughout the year. A super great experience just to kind of [00:07:00] learn, Record label functions and things like that. I played in a number of ensembles while I was there. I made business plans in classes. And I think the biggest thing that came out of that was forming my reggae rock band, I reminds, which has been kind of my primary music project over the years. And, my capstone senior project was actually putting together a DIY regional tour, which spanned. And, sorry, five states and, ten, ten, days on the road. Yeah, so, Stephen: Yeah. Well, that was practical. David: oh yeah, for Stephen: still, you're still doing that David: Still doing it now. So, yeah, I graduated in, in the, It would have been the spring of 2018 and then linked up with the MMC as an intern in the fall of 2018 and then stuck through it. Ended up doing that for five years and, again with the, announcement of the [00:08:00] dissolution of the organization, I chose to take an entrepreneurial step forward and get this booking agency off the ground. Stephen: Well, David: And here we are Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. well, let's, let's talk a little bit about Ostrom entertainment. give people the lowdown on, on what you do, how big the roster is, all that kind of stuff. David: so the roster at this point, I'm sitting at about 15 artists and, as much as I would love to help and, and represent everybody, I'm at this point where as a one person team, it's, it's pretty tricky to juggle even 10. So I'm at this point right now where, I'm pumping the brakes a little bit on that. That said, my model is, is more of a hybrid talent agency model where I'm not just representing an a roster of artists, but I also have application based performance opportunities at a variety of venues. And that is open to the general public. Stephen: Yeah, that's kind of a continuation of the MMC David: That is correct. So Stephen: So why don't you walk through people, walk [00:09:00] people through what that looks like. David: Yeah, so I basically share out application forms for these various opportunities, and those include Summit Brewing Company, the Mall of America Rotunda Stage, Republic MSP, which is a gastropub at the MSP Airport in Terminal 1 Concourse D. It's a really fun gig, really cool spot. and then I also have some other things going on. at the center in Minneapolis, which is more of a corporate opportunity. I, I helped them out with their holiday series this past year and I'm doing like a, a bi monthly happy hour series this year. And and it's just for building tenants. But again, all of those are application based opportunities that I've been sharing around on socials. Eventually, when I get a second to build out a page for this stuff on my website, they will live there too. So you can find that at Ostromentertainment. com in the near term. Stephen: Cool. So if they, do they wait to see an opportunity [00:10:00] come out and then fill it out? Or is it, they just kind of contact you and say, I'd like to be considered for an opportunity when it arises, David: so it does depend on the nature of the stage that I'm booking. The airport stage is, is a continual thing. So if, if you can't find the application form for whatever reason, just send me a note and I'll, I'll pass it Stephen: how often are you booking that David: That is a, Wednesday, Thursday, each week show. So it's a pretty regular opportunity and Stephen: And there's a lot of foot traffic David: absolutely, it's a fun one too. You never know who you're going to run into. years ago I had a former MMC member actually run into Steven Adler, the original drummer of Guns N Roses at the airport and they took a photo together and it was just a really cool moment for me, like I booked this stage. And again, it's, it's an international airport. You just never know who you're going to run into. Stephen: yeah, that's great. How about, how often is Mall of America, how often is Summit David: Yeah, so the Mall of America is a weekly series, but they usually do it, [00:11:00] you know, two months on, one month off. They have some other programming. So, generally speaking, I'll share a different application form just to get a new cycle of musicians in. and then the IDS Center is a similar scenario where it's not quite as regular. You know, obviously the holiday series is going to be booked as we approach the holidays, things like that. And summit brewing is actually another year round opportunity. So it's, it's pretty infrequent. It's monthly. So, I, I have 12 slots a year that I'm working with, but, that is still 1 of those application forms that is just constantly running and I'm, I'm keeping a tally of everybody that applies and, you know, if they've performed, I'll mark them off on my sheet. But I, I like to really mix in. Yes. Stephen: So talk about the services that you offer for the 15 people that are on your roster. obviously some people would be like, well, I can't be on the roster, but I don't care. But what you offer is what a [00:12:00] lot of booking agencies offer in some ways. So, just as an overview of, of what these kinds of companies do. And then perhaps in the future, if you higher on or expand your operations, people will kind of get to know what's available. If spots open David: Yeah, absolutely. so that kind of avenue of my business model is the more traditional booking agency model, as you kind of alluded to just now. I represent these acts and I am, I am sending emails on their behalf and, you know, it all depends on the goal of, you know, Of the artist and what they're looking to do. I have some artists that are are super busy and they're only looking for a gig or two a month. I'm representing some artists that are, you know, trying to hit the road and go on some regional tours. And, you know, that's I love that kind of stuff. Obviously, with my D. I. Y. Touring experience. It's it's kind of I've got a soft spot for for putting together D. I. Y. Tours. but yeah, that's the more Traditional [00:13:00] agency model that I'm following, and I will say, at this point, I have taken on all of my artists in a non exclusive capacity. And the reason for that is, I'm new to being a business owner, and I knew in the first few months of getting this thing off the ground I'd have a lot of administrative Things and I'd have to build out a website and do all of that. And I wanted to ensure that I could deliver for the artist. And this felt like a low risk to them, kind of like trial run of my services. And, you know, I told all of them we're working towards an exclusive partnership. And, and, you know, it's, we will reevaluate where things are at six to nine months down the road after we worked together. And if we'd like to make this an exclusive thing. Let's do it. Stephen: Yeah, David: that kind of thing. Stephen: sure. Yeah. That's great. David: yeah. Stephen: So outside of booking shows for them, are there other services in terms of consultation and [00:14:00] education? David: Yes, actually. I'm glad you asked about that. So I do have a consultation service as well. It's an hourly rate deal. and that is open to any up and coming artists that might need some guidance on whatever it may be. Obviously we've spoken a little bit about, you know, my background in, in touring, you know, pitching to venues. I have a little bit of social media marketing experience. I have a marketing degree. So, I think I have a lot to offer depending on what these up and coming artists need, to help them just take their career to the next level. There's a lot of people in the community that are still spinning their wheels in certain aspects and it's, it's my job to kind of help guide them so they're, you know, moving down the road and getting some extra mileage out of their efforts. Stephen: Well, and I, I think it's safe to say David, that this episode will probably be a little bit of an advertisement for your consulting services, because I think what we're going to do is get into the knowledge that you have specifically when it comes to some booking, but it's going to [00:15:00] spread out into more things because everything's kind of connected in a lot of ways. you know, booking a venue doesn't. Isn't the exact same thing as creating content for social media, but if you don't have good social media, it might be harder to book the venue. So that's how things are always connected. and we're going to get into the meat of the episode here with,what a lot of people are struggling with, which is how do I begin getting better gigs or getting my first gigs or, getting new gigs to places that I've never talked to and reached out. And I know that that's sort of an art form and something that you have a ton of experience with. So today's main topic is packaging the pitch. Where should somebody begin? David: I love that question. Man, that was a great segue. That was awesome. So it just has me kind of thinking about like the foundation of all of this. And, and for me, that foundation in a lot of ways is the [00:16:00] brand. It's the image, it's the identity. What is it that you're doing? Who is your audience? And I think there's a tremendous amount of value in that. And, and you know, there's a difference between the careers of people that have that strong brand and foundation and those that don't Stephen: So we bring up branding often on the podcast, right? Cause it's a big deal, but I also still think that it's like, it's a hard conversation to get really specific about. So, I mean, we have plenty of times, but I think that there's a common feeling amongst people that don't have a brand figured out yet that, yeah, you know, I, I know who my audience is. It's everybody who likes my music and. You know, my image is me and I play rock music. So that's my brand. What's wrong with the picture. David: Well, I love that. That's a really cute, kind of way of phrasing it. And I hear that same chatter in the community as well. I think it's [00:17:00] incredibly important to define your audience and, and, you know, Just as an example, if you know, I hear people say a lot of times that like my music is for everybody. Stephen: Mm. David: I, I put my heart and soul into this and everyone should like it. And, and, you know, I always like to say, so an 18 year old that just graduated high school and your grandmother are going to respond the same way to this song that just got released. I don't think so. You know what I mean? so, you know, I think it speaks to a broader conversation and that broader conversation is. You know, creatives, a lot of the time, have a hard time seeing their band as a business and their music or live show as a product. Stephen: Yeah. David: And, Stephen: But let's talk about why it's a problem in the first place. Because if you take that stance of, yeah, it is for everybody. Yeah. I have music that [00:18:00] an 18 year old and a 65 year old might like. Okay. But that's not the point of a brand. The brand isn't, could it happen? It's what's the focus. That's the big difference. And it's. It's about being way more narrowed down. It doesn't necessarily mean that somebody outside of your focus couldn't like it. They might, they might, that's fine. But I think in order to start getting people to really wrap their heads around why it's important and. How a brand, how defining a brand can make a difference is like, we might need to like invent some examples, but you think about Your own listening habits Okay, especially in the streaming era today. We listen to a lot of different music David: It's true. Stephen: People listen to tons of different genres lots of different artists. We listen intentionally and unintentionally They're just maybe playlists that are auto generated and then also a favorite album, right? [00:19:00] Okay, so we say, yeah, well, we listened to everything, but there are things that you're keyed into and things that you're not things that you actively go say, I'm going to buy a ticket to that show and things that you would only put on in the background, but you wouldn't necessarily spend any money on. Okay. Now, why? Some of that comes down to musical preferences. Okay. Inside of your musical preferences, then you still have that decision of like, let's say you listen to Americana music. There might be, let's say 10 different Americana artists that you like, but only one of them that you'd buy tickets to. because there's something else about them. It might be again, it sometimes is just the music, but it often is connected to more things. You might feel like they, their story resonates with you more or something else, their image. David: In a lot of cases, you can see, like, their, [00:20:00] their values and, and they, exactly, Stephen: kinds of things that, that you go, they're like how I want to be. That's branding. That's what's powerful. That's what gets you to actually spend money to then say that I like, now you like the whole genre of music, you like all of this stuff and you like tons of artists, but which ones do you spend money David: Yes. Stephen: That's branding. So if you want to start figuring out. First, I think you have to understand why it's important and that's the best way I can explain it. It's differentiating yourself in a some David: Yes, it is. Stephen: but then you also have to start figuring out like, well, how do I do that? Like, what does it mean for me to do that? And part of it is to start talking about your values, your message, your image, your story. There's a lot of different words to describe the same thing. Specifically, trying to be specific about it, a shortcut can [00:21:00] just be like, yes, it is based on my own personality and my own personal values and all that stuff. If that works in line with your music, great. And I think for a lot of people it does, but then you need to be expressive about those things. What happens where people get tripped up a lot is they. Just think about describing their music and that is a part of it, but it's only a part of it. It needs to be a lot more than that. David: I mean, a lot's changed with, like, I mean, even when MTV came around and stuff like that, when you could actually, like, see these videos and things like that, that was a big deal for starting to convey, you know, The, the band is a product beyond just the music that they're releasing, but you got to see little insights in who they are and what they do. And in some cases, what they believe in Stephen: And what, what's cool. David: and what's cool. And, and that kind of stuff resonates with people, people on a [00:22:00] deeper level, which ultimately translates to what you've been kind of touching on here is who's going to buy the music. Well, the people that your message. And your brand resonates with, they're going to come to your show. They're going to be your, your super fans, which is what everyone is chasing these days, because those are the ones that are going to go to your show. Every time they come to town and even they're going to spread word of mouth about who you are as an artist. And that's sometimes these days, the best way to build a bus to get people talking about it. And I mean, Social media obviously amplifies that tremendously. So yeah, there's a lot to be said about that. Stephen: It's an it's an entire episode of itself and we have done stuff you can check out nerdy's episode that one we go die We go very deep on on branding and I have a branding guide I usually have the the link to that in the show notes. You can check that out We're not gonna you know, do an entire episode on it now That would be too much of a tangent but the point is you have [00:23:00] to at a very minimum be able to describe your sound but also describe your um Um, overall, either either doesn't have to be one of these things or all of them, but it, it can be vibe for lack of a better word, it can be story, it can be values. So some examples might be, we're a party band, like drinking is our culture. And that's, that tells you a lot about like, okay, if you're a bar, like, okay, let's Then this music is fun to drink to their crowd, likes to drink, whatever. That's a brand. David: Absolutely. It is. Stephen: And then you can have another one. That's like, we're a family friendly band. There's no swear words and kids will like this and the image is very clean. That's a brand people then a venue knows, okay, that's what I'm looking for. That's what I want to hire. And then there's a million other things in between where it can just be [00:24:00] nerd rock, or it could be, I don't know, like we all know it because a lot of these brands get turned into genres, right? But don't just think of it as genre. That's not enough. Genre is one part of it. You have to then get really specific. And part of getting more specific is Incorporating your own interests or values or history, any of those things can help set you apart. David: Yeah. And I mean, that allows you to connect with people on a deeper level, because they might have those same values or those same interests. I've seen, it's funny you say, nerd rock. I seem to see even like show posters that reflect the brand of some artists where it's like retro, like eight bit graphics and images and like that suggests something, you know, that conveys something. And, yeah, I just, there is a lot of value to [00:25:00] that, and I bet, I bet people that see that poster are gonna turn out to that show if they're interested in, in old school NES games or something of that Stephen: Exactly. Yeah. So you have to be able to describe it that goes into part of the pitch. And then you also need to marry your look to it, that it makes sense together, that the images or the photos that you're using, the graphics, that it makes sense with this vibe, message, story, whatever it is. and as you do those things, you can kind of keep getting more and more narrow and keep putting that whole package together so that an image and a. Sentence or two can tell somebody all they need to know if whether or not they're going to be interested in it. David: Yes. Stephen: If you don't do that, you might be thinking, well, I'll just stay mysterious and then anybody might be interested. But the thing is, is we have too many choices. We have way too many choices. And so what we need is for you to help us figure out right away, if this is for me or not. And it's okay. If you scare people away, if somebody [00:26:00] goes, well, yeah, you're being really specific and that's not something I like. That's okay. Cause that person is not going to spend any money on you anyways. David: right. Stephen: You're better off niching down and finding a very specific angle and then finding the audience that loves what you do that David: really like that angle. I love that. Stephen: So I'm guessing that's part of what you're doing is brainstorming with people and helping them, you know, come up with some of these ideas and maybe pointing out where something's weak or where the, you know, they need to be more specific on something. David: absolutely. And I think, like, I've seen identity, you know, play a role in, in, a challenge for a band or artist to land gigs because they, they don't convey who they are, what they believe in, what they stand for. And in some cases, the genre isn't even necessarily. Super tight and nailed down. So, I, [00:27:00] I think having a very defined image, brand, sound vibe is hugely important, not only for resonating with an audience base, but how are you going to, how are you going to convince a talent buyer to take a chance on you if they've never seen you before and you're playing in a brand new market? Think about that. How is,Talent buyer going to promote the show to an audience that has no idea who you are, Stephen: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think that people will push back and say, well, I do like to do a lot of different genres for instance, or I do have a lot of variety in what I do and that's what people like about it. It's not about limiting what you can do. It's about finding a way to talk about it that can be specific because if what you're saying is, you know, I kind of do everything. That's not helpful. That tells me David: What do you do? Stephen: that tells me absolutely nothing. I will [00:28:00] forget about that. I'm not ever going to look that up. It's not interesting. I don't care. And so every other venue. So if you say, well, yeah, I had, there's a lot to me. You still have to find a way to talk about it in a way that can be specific. David: 100 Stephen: This isn't about limiting what your art is going to be. Putting you in some box, it's about figuring out how to talk about it. It's marketing David: Yes. Stephen: and you could cleverly find a way to talk about anything and make it sound specific, it's possible. You just got to try. So, you know, just look at it differently. It does not have to be. Talking about the genre or the sound specifically, it should somewhat incorporate that because obviously if people can't listen to your music, they also want to know, but you could think about like how people use hashtags even, you know, of like hashtag sad girl music. I don't know exactly what that genre is, but I'm, I kind of do, you know, [00:29:00] just from those words, like, Oh yeah, probably know what about what I'm going to get into again. So from a, from a talent buyer perspective of like, yeah, that would fit our atmosphere here or no, it would not. That's the wrong fit. That's not what we do. So you can even think of it that way of like, how would you hashtag your thing? And that's a, probably a good starting point too, to help you out. Yeah. David: That's a good way to look at it. even, even just like small phrases or something to like, like that can, you know, help you think about what it is that you're doing, what, what venue would, would you be able to perform at? What venue is the right vibe for you and your brand? Stephen: Yeah. And this is going to go way beyond your venue to like, once you get, this is going to help on social media. It's going to help in a lot of areas across everything you do, but it helps with booking. David: Yeah. I was going to say, but I mean, that speaks to it again, an even broader topic of, of brand consistency. And like, once you have that focus, it's going to be present in. All of your [00:30:00] public facing, things, whether it's a show or your social media presence, or the way that you carry yourself when you're in the community, boots on the ground, networking, you know what I mean? brand consistency is, is super important too. And I think that's a good way of saying that. Stephen: All right. So we'll move past the branding conversation at this point, but let's assume, all right, somebody's got a good start on their brand. And one last point on that is that it's, you don't have to get it perfect. Just get something started. Be as, be as defined as you can. And then as you work on it, you'll keep tweaking and keep David: Just like anything Stephen: Just like anything else, just get something to start and then refine and tweak. So, you've got something to start. What's next when it comes to packaging the pitch? David: Yeah, you know, I, I think that I'd like to talk a little bit about, some, some press kit business, which I think also does kind of tie in with your brand. And, you know, press kits are interesting. I've, I've had a lot of [00:31:00] conversations about press kits generally with artists and, and I, I get asked frequently, do, do I need a press kit? It's basically a website. And, I agree with that in some respects, but I think that there's different uses for them. for example, websites are more public facing. They're more for your fans or somebody who's checking you out and curious about what you're doing, or or they like your music and they want to learn more. You want to guide them through the site. You want that to be an experience for them, you know, so you might have, I don't know, really nice. interesting layouts and formatting and stuff that reflect you and your brand and you might have a merch store or, or something like that on your site. That is more or less designed for fans in the public where I think an EPK is. More of the the venue facing that's that's something that you would use to [00:32:00] to land a gig or even provide a talent buyer with everything they need in the easiest way possible to land you for a gig and pull any promo that they need to, you know, put this event together and and accurately depict what your event is that's coming to town. Stephen: Yeah. You know, in your electronic press kit, you're only putting the things that the talent buyer needs and nothing else. Nothing else. Whereas a website might have a lot more than just that. David: yeah, and there is overlap and I think it's Stephen: of course there is, David: it's important to, to acknowledge that. I just think there's different uses for them and that needs to be stressed Stephen: It's more convenient for the talent buyer just to have like, here's the information you need and nothing else. You don't have to go dig in my website for it. You don't have to look around. It's delivered right to you. It has all your resources done. David: and think about it from, from their perspective. I mean, I, I've done some, some bookings of [00:33:00] shows and some talent buying in my roles and boy, do I get a lot of emails. And I, I'm not even like, I've never managed, like a first Avenue venue. Let's say, I bet, I bet Dylan Hilliker and James Taylor are getting inundated every day with at least, you know, a couple hundred, pitches. So you need to think about who's your audience for, for that. And press kits, like you kind of touched on has all of the essential pieces for them. And it's easy. You got to make it easy. I think I personally believe that if your press kit is super clean, super concise and easy, that may actually play a hand in you landing the gig or not landing the Stephen: Sure. Yeah. People's time's valuable. So I always think about what's in it for them. How can you make this easier on them that will give you a leg up every time. David: it's the name of the game. Like a lot of these people are extremely busy. Stephen: Cool. So, [00:34:00] What, we don't have to talk about every little structure of the press kit, but what needs to be in a press kit for sure? David: Yeah, well, I, I've, I have a list of things that I like to see in press kits and I have some little notes about all of those things. so you're going to want a bio and I've seen the spectrum of bios in my day. you know, bios need to be relevant. And they need to convey your brand and they also need to have some strong language, not puffery. Don't be hyperbolic. I think that having a strong, well written bio goes a long way. and for strategies to, to, you know, handle that, I, I found that, well, some people will hire people. Someone to write a bio for them, but even even just having someone like interview you and ask you a list of questions kind of gets you thinking about ways that you can frame your bio. I found some [00:35:00] value in that and there were some college exercises in the music program at MSU where we had to write bios and. Those were some strategies that were effective. I also think that having a short, medium and long bio in your press kit is an important thing because sometimes they need a certain two sentence thing for their poster. And it's good to be able to provide that for them ahead of time. Again, you're making it easy. They don't have to circle back with you and ask for your, your four paragraph bio to get truncated to, to, To a couple of sentences, you provide that for them up front and I think again, being being mindful of of who you're pitching to and their and their time is really helpful. So, bio, a strong bio is definitely important, Stephen: are some of the biggest mistakes you see in bios? including irrelevant information. A lot of the time, Number one, most irrelevant information is I started playing guitar at age David: [00:36:00] Yes, Stephen: No one cares. Just take that out of your bio right now. If you've, if you've got that in your bio, just take it out. No one cares when you started taking piano lessons. No one cares that you studied music, for the most part. Just take it out. It doesn't matter. David: absolutely. And you know, I do, I also see stuff like, I graduated college in this Stephen: That's what I mean. David: and again, that's just one of those things. Stephen: whether or not this show is going to be good. David: Absolutely. Stephen: That's history. That's not a brand. That has nothing to do with your brand. We default to it because it's easier. It's just facts of our life of our past life, but doesn't matter. Doesn't portray what you're going to deliver. David: totally. Stephen: Yeah. What do you like to see instead? David: What I like to see is that's an interesting question. I think, I think, diction and verbiage is really huge. And I think that there's some really strong language that can be [00:37:00] used. for example, and I'm sure you've seen this in artist bios before, Things like high energy, that types type of things to describe the music itself. because I think there's a lot of meat to, to that type of language. I think it suggests, oh, they're high energy, they're gonna keep the, the, the room moving. High energy. And in a lot of cases, that translates to, they're gonna, they're gonna buy drinks all night. And I think that that, that language and word choice is really important to me. I like seeing a lot of that stuff. Stephen: Yeah. So maybe talking about what you expect your music is doing for people in terms of the mood of the room, because obviously a venue owner is going to care about that. If they're a listening room, they might want to know that it's going to be that kind of mood, or if it's a bar, a different type of mood, talking about that kind of thing, talking about what. Obviously you're, you are talking about your music to some extent, right? That's what we're doing here. We're describing the sound. We're [00:38:00] describing what the audience looks like. We're describing what the mood in the room would be like, all of those things you could be touched on, but then it could, you can also go to things like values and interesting aspects of your story that sets you apart as an artist, anything that's creative or interesting. I've seen people use humor in good ways too, David: Well, I mean, I feel like that reflects personality and they like to see that, you know, yeah. Stephen: any one way to write a bio. Yeah, it's tricky, but what we can do is point you away from some of the things that are just boring. and when in doubt, you know, just ask for feedback, ask for friends to review it. And, there's also chat GPT, you know, that can certainly, probably do a better job on anything that you have. Just feed your bio in and say, make this more exciting. Make this more interesting, make this more creative, make this a better story. Any of those prompts will probably get you a little further along. David: I believe that. I've not [00:39:00] tapped into any AI business yet, but I could see that being a really nice tool to help guide you in this, in this case. Stephen: Yeah, it may not be a perfect result, but it will probably, if you're stuck, offer some new ideas. David: I like that. a couple other final thoughts. I like to see if you can seamlessly, you know, add it in. I like to see press and radio. So, like, if there's a little blurb that you can kind of tack on to the end of a paragraph in a bio, I think there's value in, in having radio and press attention, especially if it's Stephen: So adding a quote from media into your bio that works, yeah, that's smart. David: And then the other thing is, you know, most talent buyers are hip to what's going on in their community. And if you're playing You know, Big Turn Music Festival, Midwest Music Fest, you're, you know, doing Mile of Music in Appleton, and you've got a, you've got a pretty decent resume under your belt of festivals and, [00:40:00] like, prestigious events. I feel like there can be value in that as well. Stephen: Sure. So putting some of your bigger appearances David: Notable appearances. Stephen: Cool. Anything else that should for sure be in there? Obviously some photos. David: Yes, yes, absolutely photos. I have a few thoughts on that as well. I think that getting a variety of photos is a big deal. some landscape oriented, some, portrait style is good. and I've also seen the spectrum of photos and I still get those ones where I'm like, I can barely make out what I'm looking at, you know? And I think that everybody should find a way, whether they're hiring a photographer or having somebody with a nice camera that they know come out to a show, even provide some, some staged shots and performance shots, you know, like a Traditional photo shoot and then a live performance video or photo, because I feel like [00:41:00] there's a lot of value in those different contexts. And, you know, depending on what the photo is being used for in marketing and promotion, it could really benefit you to have a variety of things that, that suggest different vibes and moods. Stephen: Yeah, agreed. How many photos do you generally include? David: Well, I like to include four to five on the main page, and then I've actually liked seeing a Google Drive link to a folder with additional photos if they want to look at them, and that keeps the press kit page clean, but still gives them the option if they're not finding what they're looking for immediately. To find something that they're looking for in a larger library of photos. Stephen: it. Got it. Okay, have we gone over all the essentials of the press kit? David: I guess one other thing that there are some other components, but I did want to touch on video because [00:42:00] I've actually seen this recently, having really good quality perform live performance videos. Is a huge deal and I've been asked that fairly recently by talent buyers in town. And, you know, in, in one specific case, I did not have a video that I should have had in, in the press kit that I was working with. And, you know, I just, I, I can't stress this enough. They want to know what they're buying. And in my opinion, if you can get. Board audio, and like a nice video from a live show, that is the best way of conveying to them, in one click, what they're buying. Stephen: Yeah. Do you feel like video's pretty mandatory then at this point? David: I do. Stephen: Good to know. And in terms of getting your live footage, obviously you got to start with what you can [00:43:00] afford and you know, it might be, it might not be ideal, but start with something obviously if it's really poor quality, then maybe hold off, but you don't want to send something that could do damage. David: Right. Something is better than nothing though, and I agree with that entirely. Yeah. Stephen: But eventually if you land a gig where you know that a live recording is possible, then take advantage of that. And you know, you might, might need to do some additional mixing in post potentially, but if. If it's good enough and it gets you to the next stage, then just use what you got access to, and then try to get something a little better and a little better. David: I like that approach. Stephen: Video. You said there was maybe a few other little things you wanted to touch on. David: Yeah, so I also think that, I mean, we, if you include it in the bio. You know, a blurb, that's cool, but I think it's important to have, like, if you've got a lot of write ups, or a lot of radio spots or promotions or something, and you can link [00:44:00] those and have, like, its own section for it, that does make sense too, and I think that highlights even more what you've accomplished, and that you're kind of building a buzz in whatever community you're in, if you're getting that much community interest. Stephen: Sure. Sure. Anything else? David: I think those are going to be the big ones. So we've got photos, a video, a live, good sounding, good looking video, four or five photos on average, and maybe a link to more if, if you've got them and that way they just, if they need something that really fits a specific format that can go dig through this extra drive of photos,Music is also one that's escaped me. The biggest, most common, obvious Stephen: Cause it's the most obvious David: Exactly. Stephen: let's back up and before we do the recap and we'll just throw that in, David: Got it. Stephen: well, then of course the last thing that we need in a press kit is the music. David: Absolutely. Stephen: So which actually takes us [00:45:00] to, I mean, that's the most obvious thing we need, but let's, the question is how to present the music and that probably backs into how do you build the press kit? Like, how do you like to deliver this? Is it a, you know, in terms of the formatting of it. David: I, I don't have a real preference on this as long as it is effective. So, as an example, I've got some clients that have built out pages on their website, and, you know, I, I like to see them password protected if they're, On a band's website, because you might have say, you have a really hot new song that you're proud of that. You want to help influence the talent buying decision. You might put that in your press kit and you don't want your fans to stumble across that accidentally. If it's not already released. So that that's just a password protection explanation, but having it on your website page is [00:46:00] fine. I, I, I like that way of of laying it out. I've also seen PDFs, So, like, just a example, like a Canva PDF that has multiple slides, I guess, cover each section. Stephen: What about the music though? Just a link then? David: So, you can actually find a way to, ah, I guess that would be a link. Yeah. Which, now that I think about it, is not my preferred way of doing Stephen: I would think the website's the best way to do something that's electronically hosting it so that it's just a one page website, essentially. That way you can embed video. You can embed music. David: Yeah, you don't have to drive someone away from Stephen: Yeah. If you do a link, it's because it's additional information. They don't need it necessarily. It's just more options if they, if they need that. You know, I think the photos being the best example, and if you're going to do more photos, don't make them just more of the same, make them different orientations, different styles, all that kind of stuff. Cause the [00:47:00] reason they're going to go look for more is because something you had didn't work. So don't give them more of the same. Yeah. All right. So some sort of, do you have a platform that you like for EPKs at all? David: I've seen Bandzoogle ones that look pretty clean. but Stephen: I mean, you could make it on any website David: any of the website Stephen: But otherwise, bandzugle, if you, if you don't have a website, you could always start there. Okay. So let's, let's recap the, the press kit stuff. Obviously we ended it with it, but it's the first thing that you need on your press kit, which is your music. How many songs do you include? And is there any sort of consideration in terms of what to, what to include? David: Yeah. I mean, if there's any sort of player that you're embedding and it shows streams, I mean, I would give the, the, the top song preferential, treatment in terms of the order. I think that there's strategy involved in, in that. Cause you know, people are going to click the first, the first track a lot of the time. So there's that.I [00:48:00] like, I like seeing the Spotify players, but I guess I'm not positive. I have a Spotify account, but is it a situation where someone might not be able to access it without being logged into Spotify on the device that they're looking at? I don't know, so Stephen: that could happen. If somebody, if you send it to somebody who doesn't have a Spotify subscription, it's Would still probably play, but maybe only 30 seconds. David: Right. Stephen: so ideally if, if you're building it on your website or using bands, Google, it's very possible that they'll have a player for you, that you can upload the files to directly, and then you don't have any sort of subscription or paywall that's going to prevent. So just think through that. If you are building it yourself and you embed a Spotify player, that might be a hindrance at some point to somebody that doesn't have Spotify. David: Absolutely. Stephen: to expect that a talent buyer probably has a Spotify subscription. But. But maybe they're Apple Music. Who knows? And then it would be kind of a problem. So, in previous [00:49:00] episodes we've talked about Bandcamp being a good neutral platform for that too. There's no paywall. so just think through that. A few songs. You don't need everything in your catalog there. Again, if you want to include more, go ahead and link out to it. But you only need a few to get the idea. David: Yep, and I think a good rule of thumb, too, is like, you know, I wouldn't add anything from 2008, but maybe something recent and relevant. You know, even if it's the same band, you know, you're gonna wanna give them something pretty new. Stephen: So we're including the music. We're including photos. Of course, four or five is a good rule. You can link to more if you need them. Video is mandatory at this point. Live video looks good and sounds good. A good bio incorporates your brand and what you're going to deliver in the bio. You can include any press maybe that you got, if that can work in there at a nice, seamless way of telling your story. But additionally, if you do have a lot of radio play or press, you can list that out, any big [00:50:00] notable appearances, festivals, big venues, that kind of stuff. Include that. David: Think you nailed it. there is one, one other one, though. Socials. Stephen: Links to your socials. Yeah. Do you just do links or do you do any other info? David: I mean, it depends on how impressive your numbers are. I've seen some, some situations where, you know, there's snapshots of, of the Stephen: Right. David: a bunch of followers, you know? but, you know, most often I see, clickable icons. Which, you know, Stephen: The point David: they're gonna wanna see it. Stephen: overall point is you're trying to be as impressive as possible. You're trying to be as accurate as possible too. So don't, you know, overdo it to the point where it's not factual, but sell yourself, [00:51:00] make yourself look as attractive to a venue as you possibly can. David: Big time. Stephen: okay. So we've got the, we've talked about establishing a brand. We've talked about getting a press kit together. Let's talk about actually emailing that venue. David: The email, oh boy.yeah, I, you know, I will say there's no, 100 percent tried and true recipe to this because every, every talent buyer is different. We're human, right? We have, Preferences and there's things that you know, might work for one person, but you know, the other person doesn't dig for whatever reason. but there are some strategies and I, I like to start with the, the subject line strategies because I think it's important to think about what effectively a subject line is. It's the first thing that people see a lot of the time, you know, they're going to read through that subject line and you can put some things in there that deal with [00:52:00] strategy. I like to see things like very clear subject lines, like make it, make it obvious that it's a booking inquiry. I think, and I've seen stuff where it's just. It's not that, and I'm not entirely sure what they're asking for, and they should know by, by reading the subject line, generally speaking, what this email's gonna look like, you know? I also like to see date ranges or dates in the subject line if you know for sure that you're, say, transcripting. Traveling through the area because that will generate a response faster. If they don't have to read through the whole email, find the date range you're looking for, and then cross check their calendar, they might know off the top of their head by seeing the preview on their Gmail app. Oh, that's the date that I just booked. And then that generates a quick response. Sorry. Just booked that date. I think that that does help a lot, especially in, in. You know, making it [00:53:00] easy again, it's, it's, it's kind of a theme here. You want to make it easy for talent buyers. And I think those are very effective strategies Stephen: After subject line. David: after subject line. I think that. You know, this goes back to, venues you're targeting. And, and I think doing venue research before you even type up the email is super important. there's a lot that you can learn just by digging around a site or digging around a Facebook page, seeing who's playing there.I think that if you convince someone that you've done your due diligence, that it's more likely that you're going to land the gig. If you can dig around and find who the talent buyer is, that's going to help you land the gig. Rather than saying, to whom it may concern, Stephen: Being able to actually use their name. David: yes, I think that there's a lot of value in that. so, yeah. Those are some things dealing with the email itself and how it [00:54:00] relates to venue research. Show that you have done your due diligence and another thing dealing with that would be building rapport with the venue. If you, I like this strategy, but if, if, if I see a band that I'm a fan of on the calendar, Or I, I recently saw that they played there. I'll find a way to, to, to add that into my opening paragraph to say like, Hey, or even if I was at the show, like I just saw this awesome show with X band at your venue last week, thanks for the vibe, the Friday night vibe. It was a blast. And then you, you kind of go into your pitch. It's, it's a good way to just like, Find some common ground and build that interpersonal connection with the person. This is an industry that is built on relationships. And if you can, if you can form those strong interpersonal connections, you can work with these people for years and years. They're going to be in those roles for a while. Stephen: [00:55:00] And it's important to Find other connections outside of just, Hey, I need show, you know, like working in some stuff, but all at the same time, don't have two paragraphs, a small talk and then get to your point. That's too much David: Maybe a sentence. Stephen: So it's just about finding that balance. What are some of the strategies you, you use, you know, between. Let's say specifically with new venues, due diligence, finding a contact name, let's say you don't get a response. Like what, what do you do? David: Generally speaking, I stick to a pretty tight follow up schedule initially if I do not receive a response from a venue. And I think it's pretty safe to shoot for like the 10 to 14 day range for your follow ups.again, I know that these people in these roles get inundated with emails, and I'm trying to be very, Mindful of that. And you know, you might run into a [00:56:00] situation where you're sticking on that schedule where you're following up every 10, 14 days, a few times, and then you might need to pivot and you might need to even call that venue and This is kind of where the everyone's different thing comes into play, because I've seen this work. I've had this work for my band before in a DIY run, but I also know that sometimes people don't like getting, getting a buzz, you know, especially an unsolicited one. So there are, you know, it's, it's, it's something to be mindful of, but you know, if you really need a gig in that market, I mean, it's, it's worth a shot in my opinion. Stephen: Sure. Picking up the phone old school.any other email tactics come to mind, like mistakes that people make or tricks that people should know? David: Yeah, so, some tricks that people should know, and I, I was definitely gonna touch on this, is, [00:57:00] is, it sounds so silly, but utilize bolding, underlining, and italicizing things. I think that it helps to make things stick, out, stick out, that is, so, if you bold dates, Or date ranges. And then, maybe bold the band name, or include like, I like to see this if the artist is notable and has some, some things to highlight in the pitch. Bulleted lists go a long ways. Stephen: Formatting just general, good formatting. If you are sent something, that's just a huge block of text. David: No one wants Stephen: No one wants to read it. Yeah. Format it for people. You should only have maybe four or five lines of text before you had a space like a double space and a new paragraph is what I'm saying. separate that out four or five lines of text, new paragraph. And then within each paragraph, you could bold the, the one thing that matters bolted [00:58:00] lists or bolt point lists, David: digestible, I love Stephen: italicized parts, a couple of links that are important. Keep it short, make it easy to read, make it easy to scan. David: Absolutely, and I think that having a clear ask is also important. Sometimes I get emails where I'm like, I still don't know after reading this whole email what your angle is. Do you want a gig? You know? So, make sure that you're clear. Accurately and clearly making whatever the ask is, so that they know what, what their response should look Stephen: And if you're new to this and I, and you were like, Oh, I don't know how to write an email or I've never done this before. You know, my emails are sloppy, whatever. You know, if you, if you know this isn't your talent, use chat GPT. That's the one thing it will be very, very good at David: I knew you were going Stephen: it. If you haven't. Already, you know, heard everyone talking about [00:59:00] AI people, it's, it's useful and it's easy to use. Just go there, say, here's my email. It's to a venue, make it better. And it will, it will make it better. If you haven't tried it, just do it. And you'll be, your eyes will be opened of like, oh yeah, this'll help me. David: Man, you got me curious. I'm gonna have to see. Maybe it'll, it'll, outline my shortcomings. I Stephen: can try it out because it'll probably give you some different angles. David: like that. Stephen: That you haven't thought of. David: I'm all for perspectives, Stephen: and you just talk to it, you just keep telling it like, do this, but make it more professional or do this and make it more casual, or you just give it more prompts and it'll keep rewriting it for you in a second. And when it comes to that kind of stuff, that's what it's pretty good at right away. David: Gotcha. Interesting. I have another thought about, you know, pitching to a [01:00:00] venue that's out of town that you've never played at. And I've seen this work a lot because, you know, venues are businesses and businesses are concerned about, you know, expenses and pulling in revenue from shows. So they need to, you know, make sure that tickets are going to sell and that there's going to be butts in seats. If it's that kind of a venue or something like that. And. An effective strategy is, you know, either doing your market research. So look at the bands that are playing in the, in the market that you're planning to visit, see who's aligned with your vibe, your brand, and your image, and try to line up a show with them. If you can wrangle them before you even make the pitch, you can, you can put a build together and present the bill rather than try to get a date and then. Put the bill together. And again, keeps [01:01:00] going back to this theme of making it easy for talent buyers. If they, if they can just like check off the date, the whole show's put together already, no legwork, I think that's going to get a bite, you Stephen: And it's not that talent buyers can't do the legwork. They do. They will. It's just the point is that when there's an option between the hard way and the easy way, what do you think they're going to David: exactly. Exactly. Stephen: you got to remember, you're not the only email coming in. You're one of many, many, many, many. So if yours happens to be the easiest and it does seem like, yeah, that fits. That's how you win that show. That date. Yeah. David: and then kind of in a similar vein, I found gig swapping to be really helpful, you Stephen: With other bands. David: Yeah. And, and it's a situation where you're kind of taking the same approach where you try to, you know, fill the bill. You, you, you have some skin in the game too. You're going to bring them to your neck of the woods and they're going to, you're going to host them at whatever [01:02:00] venue it is and do the legwork there and, and. Boots on the ground promo and stuff like that to get bodies in the building and make them have a positive experience in your community. And then they, you know, in turn do the same when you go and visit their community three months later on your, your next run. Stephen: In a lot of ways, that's the best way to get into booking shows is more just through other bands. You know, whether it's somebody's in your city and now you're opening up for them and that's your way into getting a gig or doing gig swapping and that sort of thing. However, at some point you need to be able to do these things too. So you're not just relying on other people to do it. but it can be a great way to start learning if you're not sure where to start. Because on the flip side of this is like, okay, maybe you're looking to start booking shows and you start with this method. It can work, but you might be better off just trying to get on somebody else's show first and getting your feet wet that way and seeing how things run and then start [01:03:00] cold reaching out to venues. David: that does work too. Stephen: Yeah. All right. We've covered, everything from the branding to putting together a nice press kit to sending the email. Are we missing anything else that you commonly run into when it comes to making your pitch and booking shows for the bands that you work with? David: You know, I, I think we, we covered a lot of ground here. Stephen: You know, there is one thing that I, there's one other thing I want to bring up because we talked about it briefly and it's not a resource I'm familiar David: Yes, Indie on the move. Stephen: Indie on the David: I learned about this actually in college and it was an extremely useful tool for me when I was doing my DIY touring. It is a subscription based online database of music venues and you know, it, it's, it's It's got a lot of great [01:04:00] information here, and it deals with a lot of the things that I talked about with packaging your email. So, You pay whatever, 12, 12 bucks a month for this database. You can filter it by, state and city. And then from there, the list of venues that are registered. And I think it's on the venue to like sign up as a venue with this, Program, but there's a lot of good ones on there. All the big ones for sure on there. And anyway, it provides you a list based on the state and city. You chose. You can click on a venue from there. And there is some info at a glance, like capacity genres that they typically have, or like, if there's blacklisted genres, you'll be able to see that. So that's all really good to know ahead of time before you even click it. Because then you can, you can eliminate some options, save some time. Be more strategic about that. But the real value is when you actually click that, [01:05:00] that venue that you're looking at, it gives you that contact name. And if you're looking at prospective venues and you're on their website, digging around rarely, are you going to find the talent buyers name there? There's where you can find it, Indy on the move. And it's, it's super helpful there. there's contact information, so phone and email generally. And then there's this really great section called booking tips, where it will tell you specifically, do not call this person. They will not respond well to it. Or maybe Facebook messenger is best for whatever reason, or, you know, and, and it's actually really helpful. for making sense of like, like, maybe you're just not getting hits back. Well, maybe you're doing the wrong thing. Maybe that's not how they do their business. And having those insights that you wouldn't otherwise have is really useful. So I have landed several shows. Through that platform, both for my bands and for other talent. And [01:06:00] it's been really useful for just updating my contacts and, and, and, you know, putting a really nice comprehensive spreadsheet together with notes for each venue and how to approach it. Cause again, every talent buyer is different. We're all human. We all have our preferences on how to do business. So it's good to know that going into it, rather than, you know, sit there looking at your five follow ups and going, Oh, how do I crack this code? You know what I mean? Stephen: Yeah, well that's another nice resource if people are looking for that, so. David: Yeah. And then one other thing, and I, I believe it's a, it's a local. Maybe I don't know. It's called tip tree. And so this is kind of a, kind of a bit of a shout out, but I, I B I recently became aware of this. I saw not too long ago in some of the Facebook, Minnesota, Facebook groups for music that there's this tip tree, Organization or [01:07:00] business that shared a list of like hundreds of Minnesota and Wisconsin venues. And all you have to do is enter your email address. And it's a really good list. It covers a lot of things from breweries to more traditional music venues and everything in between. And I, it's funny. I've been, I've been sent the list by like five different people and they're like, David, you got to have this. And I'm like, that's really funny. But, somebody in the community was generous enough to put a spreadsheet together and share it around. And I think that as a starting point, that that's a great place to just like have that contact info Stephen: Maybe I'll have you send me the link of where that's at and we'll include it in the show notes so people can sign up and get a list of those venues. David: Yeah, resources are always helpful. It's always good to have more tools in the toolbox, Stephen: Absolutely, man. Well, thank you so much for doing this. This has been [01:08:00] great. Good luck with Ostrom Entertainment. And, you know, I'm sure if a spot fills up, you'll be able to fill that pretty quickly. If you want to, you know, let people know how to contact you once you give your information. David: Yes, absolutely. Well, first off, you can reach me on all social platforms. I think, Facebook and Instagram are the best places to find me.you can also send me an email at Info at Ostrom entertainment. com. And that's also my website. Ostrom entertainment. com, where you can read a little bit about me and what I've got going on. and yeah, hopefully I will see you out there sometime in the near future. Stephen: Right now, the last thing I wanted to ask you is just what I've been asking a lot of guests essentially was, you know, what is your secret to the scene as you've reflected back on your history so far and through this conversation, starting your own company company, what is a piece of advice you'd like to pass along to [01:09:00] someone else? David: I really like that. This is the way we're ending it. That's a, that's a cool way to, to wrap things up. I think something that I, I continue to just. Touch on with everybody who I who I talk music business with is that this is really an industry of persistence You you gotta grind And, you know, in almost every facet, it's a grind. And, and, whether you're an artist, you know, who's, you know, getting their feet wet in the business, or you're somebody who's getting involved in production, I'm sure you know the grind plenty. I think that this business is conducive to people that are able to bust it. Put in work and they have to be passionate about it in order to, to stay that persistent and continue pounding the pavement. And you know, that has worked for me. Someone will notice eventually, if [01:10:00] you continue putting your head down, doing good work, somebody will notice. I think it's a really important thing. Stephen: Thanks for sharing. David: You got it, Stephen: Well, good luck. Hope to have you back on maybe in the future as the, as the company expands. David: be a blast. Stephen: thanks for sharing all your insights, David. until next time, man. David: Thank you.