Ep. 13: Breaking Into The 'Work For Hire' World As A Musician with Max Greene

[00:00:00] Stephen: On today's episode, I've got with me Max Green. Max has been my right hand man for the last three and a half years or so. A good friend at this point, an excellent engineer and a great drummer. Max and I are going to talk about how you prepare for a work for hire gig. Now, what we mean by that is if you are a musician on an instrument and you get hired to do something for somebody else, not your own music. So maybe you got hired to just fill in for a live show. [00:01:00] can't make something and you're going to fill in the spot. Or maybe you got hired to play a recording session. They want you to come in and figure out an arrangement, play the bass on a song or something along those lines. Or maybe you're doing a church gig where you're hired to fill in for that kind of live show. There are a lot of different scenarios where you can be hired just for your expertise, but it's important that you come prepared to this because if you are unprepared, you can burn those bridges and potentially lose a really valuable connection, not to mention the income that's lost if you don't do a good job. today's episode is super important. We're going to walk through preparation, like how to rehearse, how to rehearse for different types of gigs, the mindset that you need to have, and much, much more. If you're a musician that's looking at trying to break into being a work for hire musician, this episode is going to be for you. It's going to certainly help you be as prepared as possible. Max is a drummer and he's working on this kind of stuff right now. He got hired to play for a live show with Villain of the Story and he's currently prepping for that project so we're [00:02:00] going to dive into it right now. Welcome Max Greene. Max: Thanks for having me. Yeah. This is a topic or something that I don't think a lot of people think about, like how important it is to be prepared, and I think there's a big difference between playing in a band where you write the music and you come up with your own parts and you work out the songs with the other people in your band, and it just becomes second nature to you because you created the parts and so it's a lot easier to go and play those gigs with your own band but then being a work for hire person or a hired gun is a completely different world because not only do you have to learn somebody else's songs but you have to learn the way that they play live, you have to learn the personalities of the other people. You have to learn the process that they do everything you're kind of like an outsider coming in and you're expected to show up and you're expected to do it at the highest level possible. when I started out, I didn't really know the [00:03:00] difference. I was like, I'm just a drummer. I play in bands and people ask me to. Play in bands and I show up and do my thing, but it's, there's so much more to that than just showing up and playing, you know? Stephen: I can't tell you the amount of times that I've had a client in a recording session, right? a solo artist and we're, I'm producing the track and we get to a spot where we need a musician. It's something that needs to be live that I can't do. Maybe it's a lead guitarist, maybe it's a funk bass player or live drummer or something. Right. I go, well, I've got these session musicians that are going to cost X amount of dollars because they're professionals. And the artist opts to say, well, My friend, my friend plays this and I'll just have them come in. They're going to do it for free. And it's at the point now where I pretty much don't allow that anymore because it's just a waste of everyone's time and money. Not always. Sometimes it can work, but, it's just very risky because of exactly what you're saying. Somebody comes in. It's thinking like, well, I'm great in my band and I know what [00:04:00] I'm doing. And then you ask them to play something that they aren't as familiar with. It's not second nature to them and they can really, really struggle and it can be embarrassing for them. It can be an awkward session and of course I'm not going to reach back out to that person to play. I need that musician to come in and make things easier for us. And unless you're prepared, unless you're incredibly talented and you know how these things go, it's hard to pull that off. Max: Yeah. something I've kind of realized, like there's people in bands and then there is like session musicians, or. Like, Stephen: Gig Max: gig players, and a lot of the times, the gig players, they have like the niche of type of genres that they do, and they do it very, very, very, very well. remember when, I first started working here and, You had me play on somebody's song and the session went fine or whatever. We got, we got it tracked, but it took a while and we had to kind of work through all the parts and stuff. And then afterwards you told me, make sure that you play with people other than just the people in your band. and that like [00:05:00] struck a chord with me. I was like, yeah, cause I'm so comfortable playing with the same people that know how I play. And I know how they play, and they know the stuff that I come up with, and I know the stuff that they come up with, and if I make a mistake or whatever, it doesn't matter, but in like a studio session, I quickly learned, like, you have to, fit the vibe of the song, but then be able to change parts on the fly. You have to be able to change Whatever's ingrained in your mind with how you're going to play it, you have to be able to flip it just like in an instant and be able to do it fast and be able to do very, very well. And it's taken me a long time to like develop those skills, how to get better at those types of things, how to practice for those different types of scenarios, whether it's a live gig or a studio session or like a music video. Stephen: Yeah, I can think of one instance where we had somebody come in and really, really bombed on the session. And I was kind of asking the artist, like, why did you think this person was going to do it? You know, [00:06:00] and well, they're great in their band. They've they're like doing a tour. They're on a national tour. You know, thinking like these are credentials and they might be, they might be. But unless it's a right fit for your music. they might bomb. it is harder than you think. So it's important to be prepared and to think through these things in general for your musicianship, kind of to hint back at what you were saying, getting a variety of experiences, playing in different genres with different musicians will help you immensely, no matter what, even if you're not. Intending to do session work or, you know, be a freelance bass player, drummer, or whatever. Getting that variety of experience in some other way is still worth it because you will become a better musician. So many people are feel players, like this is how it feels to do this thing. And that's just a completely different thing than being able to know the technicality. That goes into the part, being able to count the part, being able to understand it from a very fundamental musical skill route so that if something's a little bit challenging, [00:07:00] you can use the logistical side of your brain to solve it versus only this is how it feels to Max: Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I did when I, I was in high school or middle school, high school, and it was all just about feel. I didn't really take like drum lessons or dive into the, the super nitty gritty. And I just did everything off of how it felt and how it sounded. And then once I was like, About to go to college, I was meeting up with like professional drummers in the Twin Cities and just kind of picking their brains and stuff. Because something I really wanted to do was branch out and do studio sessions and be able to play, work for higher gigs, and be able to play with pretty much anyone that I could and any opportunity that I could take. So I was just seeking advice. And this drummer, Jordan Carlson, he plays he was just like, yeah, do as much and as many different types of things that you can. because it'll just make you a better musician and it'll make it easier for you to be thrown into a new scenario or a new gig or. you know, a new thing that you might not [00:08:00] be super comfortable with, but it'll make it easier for you to be thrown into an environment that you're not used to and be able to do well. I started doing church gigs. I started playing with, a rapper. I started playing with other like rock bands and stuff and slowly started to evolve and stuff. And when I first started doing that, like my first church gig that I did, I got the songs ahead of time, and normally how I would practice before is I'd just pop in my headphones, I'd jam along to the song, I'd play along with it, I'd mostly play the song in the drum part the way that it was in the recording, but I would, you know, add in my own fills, and I'd kind of change up the groove a little bit or The song would be more technical or more hard and I wouldn't really like, listen to it. I would just like, play along with it. And I thought that was like, yeah, I'm prepared, I'm ready, I know what I'm doing. And then I got to the gig you know, the rehearsal is at six in the morning and it's a short rehearsal and everybody there is a pro and knows the parts inside and out and there's click tracks and there's cue tracks [00:09:00] and the rehearsal isn't a let's work through the songs and work through the parts that we don't know the rehearsal is We play the song, so we make sure all the gear and stuff works and everything sounds right. everyone's expected to know the song. The rehearsal isn't practice. The rehearsal is, let's play through before we actually play the show. And as soon as we started rehearsing, I was so used to playing along with the recording and having those drum tracks in my ears to play along with and to rely on. As soon as those were gone, I was like, oh geez. And I kind of like froze and forgot all the parts, my heart was pounding, I'm playing, like, changing the parts, forgetting what I was supposed to play, and it was just, it's very clunky and awkward, and it just felt really weird, and then they'd be like, hey man, you're supposed to do this during this part, and, I just wasn't prepared, and I realized in the moment, I am not prepared well enough, I don't know these songs well enough, and in between the two services I had to go to my car, listen to the songs again, play along with them on my, on my lap, and like, try to remember them. But it was just [00:10:00] very uncomfortable, very awkward, and it's not like the songs were super super hard, but I just didn't know them well enough. I just kind of half assed the preparation, and then when it came time to play them, I was kind of winging it, and that's a very horrible feeling. Stephen: Yeah. No one wants to be in that spot. No one wants to be looked at that way. And, in the, in the church world and stuff like people can be pretty forgiving and, you know, obviously you're still doing those gigs. So it, it didn't, it didn't ruin you or anything like that, but it was a learning. it didn't ruin me and they gave me a lot of notes and then when I met, with that drummer, Jordan Carlson, he told me, cause he does a bunch of church gigs and stuff. And he said, chart out your songs because a lot of like those types of songs are very similar. And so it's easy to get them confused. Max: Chart out your songs, but not, like, notate it. Just write things down that you will remember what to play in the moment. So you can, maybe you get the songs for any type of gig. Maybe you get the song a couple weeks before the [00:11:00] show or whatever, and you don't have that much time to, like, memorize it. You can, you know, write out the structure of the song, and then write down whatever it is that you will remember. So, like Big full kit intro and if as long as you know what that means you'll be able to play it first light Hi hat pattern chorus crash and just little things that you can glance over at Remember what part of the song you're in? What comes next and kind of what you're gonna play and I do that a lot And then you can just put it on a small piece of paper on the floor or whatever out of the way And if you ever need like a little like What comes next year? Just glance down, you have it charted out, you have your basic notes that'll like trigger something in your mind. Remember, oh yeah, I do this thing here, or write down a lyric where you're supposed to like ramp it up or whatever and just highlight, go big on this lyric or. You know, simple little notes, that will really help. Or even doing that in the, in the studio, with someone's song who you hear the day of. like [00:12:00] in the control room with the producer and the artist. You can map out the song, and then kind of write down what you're going to play for each part. Or you can write down how long the section is. Or you can just do whatever sort of little notes that you can to help you along. So that way you're not just winging it. Stephen: Definitely. let's actually take a step back and kind of give an overview because there's different types of hired gigs, right? You've got, you know, the church gig, which we've talked about a little bit. You've got recording gigs, session Max: Yep. Stephen: you've done gigs where it's like rehearsal for music video, and then you've got live shows. Anything else that you Max: that's pretty much it, yeah. Music videos, live gigs, church gigs, and then Stephen: recording Max: recording sessions Stephen: live gigs and church gigs being somewhat similar, but the church gigs are just a different beast because there's so much more produced and more exact, whereas a lot of, if you get hired to play in somebody's band, Max: there's not a clock on the, in the back saying what happens [00:13:00] next, you know? Right. There's, it's usually not with backing tracks and all that stuff. it's a different type of thing. cause the preparation for each type of those gigs, maybe changes a little bit. Quite a bit actually, I think. For me at Stephen: Well, why don't you dive into one? I mean, you already talked sort of about the, church thing off of that experience of like, prepping for church gigs being, you know, a big thing being note taking, and making sure that, I suppose then when you are practicing, make sure that you practice without the backing tracks a little bit. Max: Yeah. Yeah, so that's pretty much what I do for the church gigs. It's just listen to the songs a bunch, chart them out before I play them and then play them, practice them and then I'm usually good to go. Stephen: Okay. Max: For let's say like a music video. That's a completely different thing and for that, it's usually one to three songs. The band that I've majorly done music videos with is Villain of the Story. And so they'll do like probably three songs per album that they'll do music videos for. And they'll usually batch the shooting of the videos up into like three days, two or three [00:14:00] days. a lot of times I'll get the song, a month before. And if I'm lucky, a couple months before, and their songs are very, very hard to play. They're very technical. I consider myself kind of like a groove, straightforward rock drummer. These songs are insane double kick, your legs are moving faster and doing way more than what your arms are doing. There's so many fills, there's so many time signature changes, there's so many, they're insane. So, a month of time. is not a lot of time to learn one of their songs most of the time. Some of their songs are easier, but I'll get the song and I won't allow myself to listen to anything else other than that song or songs and I'll listen to it over and over and over and over and over thousands of times every day I'll make sure to listen to it at least 10 times and I'll do that before I even sit down at the kit and try to play it because I realized The more you can memorize the song and know it inside and out and sing the drum parts or sing whatever part you're playing, [00:15:00] the more it's just ingrained in you and the way faster it will be for you to learn it. And for me, that's worked really well. So I'll just listen to it for like a week straight before I even try and play it. and then, with the music video, you have to play note for note. You can't do your own fills. You can't take liberties here or there and change up a part a little bit. You have to play it note for note. And so I'll get the drum, just the solo drum track, and I'll listen to that over and over and over and over again. and I'll have the instrumental too. And so then I'll take those songs. I'll pop them into Pro Tools, or you can do this in GarageBand or whatever. And I will take the drum track and I'll make it super loud, and I'll pop the instrumental or I'll pop the master. really quiet underneath. And then I'll just have a click track and I'll make a bounce of that. And I'll listen to that over and over and over again. So I can really hear exactly what the drums are doing. I have context of what's going on in the song underneath because it's just tucked in there. And I'll listen to [00:16:00] that over and over again. And then after I do that, then I'm ready to actually sit down at the kit and start playing it By having it ingrained into my mind how the song goes, how the drum parts go, learning the actual parts is a lot easier. once I start learning it, and I start practicing it, I'll break down the song by sections. One, the first day, I'll try and just learn the intro. I'll go limb by limb if I have to, and just learn what the right foot is doing, and then the left foot, then put them together, then add in the left hand and the legs, then add in the right hand and the rest of them. And I'll loop it, and I'll loop it, and I'll play it over and over and over and over and over again until I get the part just memorized and ingrained. And then it's like, alright, then I move on to the next section the next day. next day, next day, so on and so on, and, you know, in a week. You have the song pretty much learned and then you can go through and kind of fine tune and really work out the spots that you're weak at, but I think for music videos, the more you can memorize the parts and memorize the in and outs, note for note, the better [00:17:00] off you'll be,but that's kind of my approach for music videos. Stephen: it sounds like that's a little bit of a hybrid approach really in some ways Because you spend so much time listening beforehand so that you can kind of still play by feel Essentially, there's a little bit of that. I think that is your comfort zone of like partially because everybody starts by not everybody but a lot of people learn by playing by feel right and by playing in their band the music that the records that They listen to and that sort of thing so you're kind of doing that by like you're cheating that by being like, okay, I didn't, I didn't write this song, but I'm going to listen to it so many times that I know it like I did. And then I'm going to play it that way. And all the better for you figuring out like that, that's what you need to do to learn it obviously in different instruments can be different things and different backgrounds. Like if you. have a little bit more of a technical bent and, maybe you came from doing lessons and you have the skills and the ability to, to break things down into a technical way. You could also do it that way. Max: Yeah, you can notate Stephen: where you, yeah, exactly. You maybe, maybe that works for you where you could really notate it out, whether from a [00:18:00] drum standpoint or if it was on bass or guitar keys, where you might just, here are the notes and. I don't need to listen to it that much because I can just sheet, you know, read this off of a sheet of music. Max: Yes, exactly. Stephen: so you have to decide what works for you but if you know that that's your way of learning songs, then that's a great way to do it and I would just say that it's still beneficial if you know that, Hey, I work well off of feel then to keep working on how do I do this? Not off of feel like maybe not with a villain of the story song where it's like incredibly difficult to notate and to learn from notation, but, maybe something else where you could start breaking it down that way so that your brain starts getting the, the logical side of it. Max: Exactly. And I think that approach works more for like the studio stuff where there is no part created already. Stephen: yeah, because, because you're going to need it for that situation, so let's, let's hop over to how to prepare for a studio session. Max: Yeah,So for that, like you said, there [00:19:00] isn't a song or a part already created most of the times. There's just like maybe the chords and like a guitar and a piano or maybe there is like a rough program drum part that's kind of like the vibe, but you're basically showing up to invent the actual part for the actual recording. so there's not a whole lot you can really do to prepare for it other than see what The artist wants beforehand. So do you want me to completely invent a part or do you have a part that you kind of already have worked out? Do you want me to base what I do off of that? do we want to work it out in real time? Kind of Stephen: so yeah, you know, preparing for a recording session, I think the first and foremost thing is clear communication. have you spoken with the artist or producer or, or both on what the expectations are coming in? cause the recording gig, the producer might reach out and say, I've got a part that's pretty much there. We just need it to be, you know, if it's programmed drums, we want it to be on live drums, or it could be, we've programmed this key part of this bass part, [00:20:00] but we need a little bit more like personality and we want you to play it. We want some feel, but stick within these bounds. That might be the case, or just as often as you mentioned, it can be. Now we've got a song and we like your style. We want you to come in and do your thing, but we don't have a specific part. So a big part of, prep is simply communicating to know what's going to be expected of you. Partially to even know like what to bring, you know, somebody might be hiring you because they like your vintage bass sound. So you should probably bring that vintage bass versus something else, or they like your specific kit or whatever, and they want the sound of your instrument. So being able to say, yeah, okay, I'll bring that to this gig or a variety of things to this gig. it can be that, or to know what to prepare for, like stylistically. Okay. We're going for country here. All right. Well then I'm going to, I'm going to be listening to these references or this Max: These artists, and then focus on what the drummer, bass player, [00:21:00] whatever does in those types of songs. What kind of feel do they have? What kind of fills do they do? What kind of, how busy are they? How not busy are they? Kind of Stephen: Exactly. Yeah. How, how much should I be playing or how much should I be staying out of the way? Those kinds of things can be maybe directly communicated to you from the artist or producer, but you could also infer a lot of that from maybe the reference or the demo that you're getting in terms of what they're going for. So a lot of that comes down to communication. And then after that, just making sure that your instrument is ready to go. Do not come in with a broken or, poorly set up instrument, you know, if you are bringing your kit into a session, make sure it's ready to go. Max: It's a huge, Stephen: bringing a guitar or a bass that it's treated well, that it's, it's, set up, it's the intonations. Well, the strings have been replaced in the last year, that sort of thing. well, at least for guitars, bass can have old strings, Max: Yeah, that's huge, is, obviously the communication beforehand, and then, yeah, if you're bringing in your instrument, make sure it sounds good. For [00:22:00] me, I'll always bring cymbals, because I know how they sound, and I have a set of cymbals that I know will work for most projects, and I'll probably bring in my own snare. But I'll make sure there's a new hat on there. I'll make sure it's tuned. And then I'll make sure, for drummers or whatever at least, when I go to the studio, that I'm able to tune the kit, if I need to, the genre of the song. Stephen: Mm hmm. Max: they want your vintage bass in there, bring it in and make it sound the vibe that they want or bring a couple options just in case if they want something different. one thing that I just thought of about preparing for the studio is, I was interning at a studio when I was in college I remember, they would bring in session players to play and I remember one of the engineers commenting like, man, look at how consistent this drummer is It was Steve Goold Look at how consistent his snare hits are. Look at the dynamics. Look at how, even like looking at the computer screen, looking at the sound waves, look at how [00:23:00] even. each kick note is. Listen to how similar each snare hit sounds, Look at the dynamics. You can literally see the sound wave get bigger in this section, but it's not all over the place. You listen to just the snare track, it's every hit sounds the same. Me at the time, I remember then going and listening to my drum recordings. I was like, wow, each snare hit sounds different. I'm hitting some of them in the center, I'm hitting some on the side. I'm way too inconsistent dynamically. I'm kind of sloppy. And I realized like to be a good drummer or a good session player. Isn't how crazy fast you can do or technical of fills you can do. It's about how good you make the instrument sound and how well you're able to fit the song. a huge part of it is they don't want you to just sit down and shred. They want you to sit down and just sound good. And Stephen: Well, and serve the song. The other week I I met up with Matt Patrick, the producer at the library, owner and producer, [00:24:00] and we were reflecting on the amount of times that when you have session musicians in that you're pretty much always just asking, can you play less? You know, like, can you keep it a little bit simpler? So yes, you're absolutely right. It's not, Well, sometimes it can be, but a lot of times it's not about being so crazy, you know, showy, something that's really technical and advanced on the instrument. a lot of times it's no, just, be in the background, but, do it perfectly, you know, partly of, you know, when the engineers are looking at somebody like Steve Goold's performance. Look how consistent is. They're also thinking this is going to save us so much time. You made our job so much easier. I don't have to cut this up. I don't have to quantize this. well, that's not a big deal. I hire session musicians all the time that I'm still editing. It's not that we don't expect to edit. It's more that. Whatever you're bringing, you're serving the song, you're serving the artist, you're serving the person that's hiring you. It's not about you. It's not about you playing a track or doing something that you feel proud of necessarily. It's what serves [00:25:00] the song. I've hired session musicians in the past where there's been like tension where I've asked the session musicians like, no, I just want the easy, like, can you just play the four on the floor? Like I don't need any of that other stuff. Just play the thing. And they've literally said to me, you know, well, that's not what I would want to do. Like, well, it's not, it's not, your song. I don't care. And that is the exact thing you shouldn't do as a session musician. because. particularly if you're, if you're younger, you're just getting started, you want to have something in your portfolio that's going to really show off your skills. This isn't the time or place to do that. if that happens, great, but that is not why you're being hired. And it's going to be hard to get hired again, if that's how you treat it, because you're slowing down the process, you're making things more difficult. Max: I think a good way to prepare for those sessions is practice consistency, record yourself. See and listen back to yourself, whether it's you do that on [00:26:00] your computer and put it in a DAW and you can visually see am I rushing or dragging or just record yourself on your phone and listen. How do I sound? you know, what are my dynamics like? you know, just reflect on your playing and compare it to the people that you listen to compare it to people that are way, way, way better than you. And, and that's how you can really get better. And then for me, what was weird doing the studio stuff early on was, and still is weird for me as like, Just, yeah, be able to take notes and do it quickly. Because the whole name of the game is, time. They don't want to spend a bunch of time just recording your drums. They're spending money to get their song done. You're a hired gun. You're not supposed to take an entire day to track the drums on one song. So be able to execute it in four or five takes. And then be done. So kind of practice throwing yourself in the deep end a little bit, pull up an instrumental track, play along with it a couple times, record yourself and see how you sound and see how you did not being familiar with the song. [00:27:00] And Stephen: Yeah, I agree. Push yourself now, which actually kind of brings me to another. subject that we probably should get into, which is like the mindset. And this particularly happens in, in the studio world, but probably live to, you know, the other gigs, but which is, you know, well, okay. If I'm supposed to be like this great session musician, like, when do I start saying yes? When do I know if I'm ready? Because part of it is you just have to jump in and try stuff. You don't necessarily know if you're going to be perfect for this or not. So. Big thing is just having the right mindset of like, whatever this takes, I'm going to do what I got to do to make this Max: Yeah. Stephen: because I think part of it's on the artist, part of it's on the producer to make sure that they're picking somebody that they think is right. Cause I do still intentionally hire new session musicians, people that are trying to break in. because they got to start somewhere and generally it's also more affordable for the artists then. So there's that bonus. But when I do that, I try to be very specific about, okay, I know this person's skillset and [00:28:00] I think that they're going to match up with this song. If it was going to be something difficult or a little bit outside of what they were already doing, then that's probably a bad decision on the production level. I mean, you can pull it off, but then you might just need more time. so yeah, mindset's a big part of it that even if you're like, Oh gosh, I don't know if I can do this or if you're in the session and it's like, well, I was prepared for this and now they want me to do something completely different, you know, what do you do? Max: Yeah, I think mindset is very, very, very, very important. when I was starting to do things outside of my own personal band, I knew deep down I was not good enough, and I was not prepared enough, and I was not ready for all the opportunities that I said yes to. Like the villain of the story music videos I had no idea What I was in store for What the challenge was and I knew that is not my type of playing and I knew I wasn't good enough to do it But I knew they didn't have a drummer to do it And I was like, well, I'm not gonna be able to have cool [00:29:00] opportunities by just playing alone in my mom's basement, practicing day and night. Nobody cares how fast I can do paradiddles on my own. That doesn't mean. The only thing that really, like, will get you more of your gigs and more opportunities is if you go do gigs and do opportunities. So I was like, I knew that they didn't have a drummer. I overheard Christian saying, Yeah, we don't have a drummer. We're about to, do some, some videos. I didn't even really know him. I looked him up on Instagram, hit him up. Hey man, heard you guys don't have a drummer. For your videos you looking for someone actually yeah, we are let me send you some songs See if you can learn them. I was like, oh, wow that actually worked and I did it got the songs like holy Geez Louise, these are insane I cannot pull these off Stephen: So what made you decide to go for it, then? Max: because I was like well either I'm gonna do these videos and it's gonna be a complete train wreck and they'll never call me back again, and at least I can say I did it or It'll work and I practice day in and day out. There's two videos. The first one I showed up did not go [00:30:00] well at all I Knew the song probably 65 percent but I was able to fake it through or whatever You know, I felt really, really bad about it. I was in my mind the whole time. Like, God, you suck at drums. Like, ugh, you're not prepared. You don't know what you're doing. The next day, there's another video. It went way better. it was just about like, even though I wasn't able to pull it off, like, performance wise that time, I knew now. If they did decide to ask me to do them again in the future, I knew what I needed to do to prepare for it. And I knew like, I was way more comfortable with the environment and just knew what I needed to do to be successful for next time, if there even was a next time. But the whole time I was there, I was like, well, I remember looking in the back and there was one of the members of the band and he was just looking at me like, cause I was like not playing the right parts and stuff. But luckily they were able to edit it together and it looks fine. but The whole time then that we weren't shooting, I just made sure to be super nice, cool, easy to get along with, easy to work with, not act like I, you know, did the best job in the world, but [00:31:00] just, luckily they did ask me to do more and more and, each time I show up and I'm able to pull it off way, way, way, way more. Yeah, I think that's says a lot that, you know, you had the courage to say, all right, I'm going to go for this. Right. I, you know, you must've thought I'm on the edge. I might be able to pull this off. Right. And you go for it. And if you have the first one doesn't go great. Right. So let's talk about that. Stephen: If you have that kind of experience, whether it's live or in studio or elsewhere, the best thing you can do is still just obviously do as best you can. Offer whatever you have to offer to make things okay. So if it's a, session gig and it's like, Oh man, this took a little too long. And we're like, I feel bad. I didn't really do this. If you think you can. it, you know, you can privately or otherwise say to the artist or the producer, like, you know what, I'm going to put together something great and I will come back on my own dime or whatever to help out and like, make it right. the worst thing to do is yeah. Pretend like nothing went wrong or like act like it's somebody else's fault or yeah, you know, you don't want to do [00:32:00] that because that will just. because a lot of people can be very forgiving and understanding of things. And, but that, that will shorten that forgiveness margin. but the other thing, and I've talked to you about this too, is like, you can't get in your own head about just like, Oh, I suck. And this is going so terribly because that doesn't help. Max: you can think it but don't vocalize that you did a horrible job Because a lot of times what you think is horrible and sucks Or you think you ruin the whole show because you messed up an intro of a part or whatever a lot of times people Don't remember that or they they don't think it's nearly as bad as what? You think it is and so if you're vocalizing, oh man I'm gonna try and be ahead of this So they know that I know that I messed up and you just say I suck or I really messed up that thing It's just you're just reassuring to the other people like oh, maybe this maybe this guy isn't that good you know don't walk around like you frickin nailed it, but just be Cool, and just be open to criticism if people give it to you. Be like, [00:33:00] yeah, you're right I did mess that up a little bit, but I'll get it for next time and don't be just a self fulfilling prophecy of demise and Talk yourself out of not being able to Stephen: Yeah, there's a balance there because I think that a lot of that sort of self deprecation comes to try to like, take some pressure off of that musician. Like, not getting in. I suck, you know, like, you know, they feel the pressure, the artists is watching the, you know, the audience is listening, whatever it is and they, they want to ease some of that tension. Like, And self deprecation has a way of doing that a lot of times that can help, but there's a line where then it can just become unhelpful, especially I think in the studio sense where it's like, yeah, but we're here and we're doing it. So you gotta just keep trying and probably saying that this isn't working isn't going to help you get it. Just know, know the situation and try to remain positive. Like I said, do what you can to deliver no matter what that is. And, if it means coming back, if it means putting in extra time, if it means, I [00:34:00] don't know, but people will be understanding, especially as you've said, If you've been cool and because a lot of time you're just hanging out, you know, it's about getting along with people. And if all of those things are right, then people are more willing, depending on the stakes, of course, but more willing to say it's cool. We'll get it. Don't worry about it. Max: I think people understand that You're not gonna be perfect or whatever your first time so learn from the mistakes and then just don't Keep repeating them that people will they want you to evolve and grow and if you're easy to work with you're reliable they can depend on you and they know that you're gonna put in a hundred and ten percent effort They'll ask you back and as long as you don't keep the whole song, or you don't, the next studio session is way better. Then they'll ask you to do another one after that. And you know, the, the next music video you show up and you have the parts just dialed in and nailed, and they'll ask you to do the next one, or the next gig is better than the very first one. You know, they'll understand that you're not perfect right away, [00:35:00] but as long as you are open to criticism, you're open to showing that you're invested, they'll be more forgiving and. it won't be as big of a deal if you mess up a studio session or you mess up at one gig, your career's not over. You just learn from it, move on, adjust, evaluate. It's like athletes, like, Stephen: Everyone's got that story. Everyone's got that story of like, this did not go well and you learn from it and you hopefully improve and then move on to the next thing. So I feel like we've talked about church gigs, prepping for that music videos, the studio, but probably not so much just like general live gig. You're going to fill in for somebody that's playing. What do you think about that? Max: for how I prepare for those is similar to kind of the video and, studio stuff for church gigs where it's like, if they have their set list, I'll listen to it a bunch, whether it's cover songs or originals, I'll listen to it. And I'll try to,memorize the songs, listen to them a thousand times. I'll play along with them. You know, if I need to, I'll chart them out. but for those for [00:36:00] live. It's different because it's about being able to pull off the vibe and the energy and put on a great performance. And so you don't necessarily have to worry about knowing the song note for note. You don't have to worry about having every drum fill memorized or every part memorized. Stephen: It's a little bit more forgiving. You just have to be able to, pull off the songs. And play them like, you know, 90 percent the way that they're supposed to be, but you can have a little bit more liberties, or you can dumb down some parts here or there if you're struggling, or if you're on a time budget, you don't have much time to learn it, you just get a majority as much as you can, but it doesn't have to be perfect, but you just have to be able to deliver It'd be easy to work with. Max: easy to work and just be able to flow the way that the rest of the band flows. Work with the way that they work, kind of thing. Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. Max: and then preparing for rehearsals too. if there is rehearsals, you know, , getting up to speed, up to par, so that way when you [00:37:00] go to rehearsals with them, they're not teaching you their songs. you show up and it's like, oh, wow, this, this guy knows the parts pretty well. There might be a couple of things here or there, but this person knows what they're doing. We don't, we don't have to worry about this person being an anchor. You know, if you're filling in for someone, or if, if it's like a wedding gig, a lot of times wedding bands have people rotate in and out and they don't rehearse, you're just expected to show up and have this catalog of hundreds of songs and, and show up and the set list. will be, you know, 20 of these 300 songs, but you need to know a majority, you know, you need to know whatever it is and you got to show up and there isn't a rehearsal. So You know, you chart out all the songs the best you can and be able to, to do it live and you might not play nearly what is on the recording. But as long as you fit the song and you fit the live show and you bring the energy and you bring the experience to the audience, it'll be fine. it's not a train wreck and the rest of the band can groove and play along with you. It's fine, you know, learn what the gig is, learn what's required, do as much as you can [00:38:00] to prepare and be ready for whatever that is and whatever that entails, basically. Stephen: Yeah, I think no matter what you're, preparing for, if it's any of those work for hire scenarios, especially if you're just starting out. Chart them even if you don't need it chart it because the process of charting it will help you memorize will help you learn It's just it's just a good skill to do chart it out and have that with you It also just shows that you took the time to prepare Again, even if you think you don't need it, just do it, you know until you get really comfortable with those gigs maybe it's if you're okay, I've already worked at the studio a handful of times like and you've got a a relationship there, then you can skip some of those things, maybe, if you really don't need them. I think always chart, always show up with a, the instrument that you know that the artist wants or that the gig requires, or at least a couple options. Definitely show up with a positive attitude and be ready to be a problem solver, to help out, to serve whoever's hiring you. Anyway, you can oh, and then make sure that you have a conversation with whoever's hiring you [00:39:00] beforehand to be very extra clear about what the expectations are when you need to be there, what you need to be prepared for that way. You, you know, there's never a, Oh, I didn't know I needed this or I was supposed to be here when, all of that can just really set a bad vibe right away. If you do those things, the day is probably going to go just Max: Yeah, one thing I've learned like be prepared for the environment with music videos you're not going to be necessarily in an ideal place to play the drums. when you do music videos, the drums are completely detuned, so you're just hitting loose pieces of plastic. The cymbals don't feel the same because you have clear tape underneath. It sounds like trash. you're playing outside in the middle of the woods on a weird slanted thing, or you're, On a soundstage where there's three inches of water and you're on a floating piece of styrofoam that wiggles and moves and, you know, I, I remember, I prepared this song for three months and now I can't hardly play it because there's water on my pedals and it's like, [00:40:00] prepared for the environment. Stephen: Just do the best that you can in whatever the environment is. If, if you're playing, uh,live show with bad sound or Max: A big thing was, for me was, know the songs inside and out so that whatever obstacles are thrown at you, you're still able to get through it. If your monitor dies or your in ear dies, Know the song well enough that you can pull out your ears and you can just listen to the front of house speakers And or you can just feel the bass rumbling and you know how to get through the song don't have to rely on anything else other than I know the song it's ingrained in me I'll work through this problem or you know, there's water splashing on me or I'm my kits floating away or stuff's tipping over I still know the song well enough. I'm able to do it break a stick, I'm able to play through it. Or, something breaks or something goes wrong. Or, you know, you can't hear something. You just, you're able to play to the environment and you're prepared enough that whatever happens, can play through it kind of thing. Stephen: [00:41:00] Yeah, if you're only prepared to do your part in ideal scenarios, then you're not prepared enough. Yeah. because yeah, there's so many factors that can change how a part feels physically. Obviously, if your drums are in water or whatever for a music video, then that's going to really change things. But even just like emotional or like things You know, maybe you're doing a session and the feedback is, Oh, that's not what we had in mind. Like, that's not what we wanted. you have to be prepared enough to be like, okay, well, let's, let's talk through it and point me in the new direction and just have the attitude of like, all right, I will deliver and just let's clearly we had a miscommunication or maybe we didn't communicate. again, you're there to serve other people. Yeah. You're being, this is a work for hire. You're being paid for this , so you need to make sure. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Max: Yeah, every time Stephen: I Max: play drums in a studio session, I'm aware that, there's going to be a lot of coaching, there's going to be a lot of back and forth to maybe work this part out. Be prepared for that mindset to be on edge, to be uncomfortable, [00:42:00] to be not knowing what you're necessarily going to play. when you're in the right mindset for Stephen: the gig, Max: Whatever it is, you'll be a lot more successful. and you'll just be able to get through it a lot better because you're ready for whatever mindset and kind of thing you need to be Stephen: whatever mindset and kind of thing to in. If you do any of those things, it's important to chart stuff out. It's important to communicate really well before you go into that with whoever's hiring you to make sure that you know, what's expected of you in terms of rehearsals, when you need to show up, what you need to be bringing to these things and exactly what they want from you. We talked about how important mindset is both your own mindset going into something, but also. Just your attitude towards hanging out with people and being easy to be around so that if you're doing a week of gigs with somebody and you're in a tour van that could ruin, you could play all the shows perfectly, but if you're not fun to [00:43:00] be around, that's not going to get you hired again. what else did I miss in terms of Max: taking opportunities that you might not necessarily be ready for,or you've never done before, like a new opportunity. Stephen: It's okay to push yourself as long as you think you can get there. Max: take it, do it as long as you think you can do it decently well and, slowly but surely you'll gain a new skill, you'll get more opportunities, and you'll just, you'll keep growing over time and you kind of, for me, it's always like try to reach outside of your comfort zone a little bit more and then eventually that becomes comfortable and then you reach a little bit further and eventually that becomes comfortable and you just become a better musician or a better whatever. the more you push it a little bit. Stephen: On the flip side of that, if you do get offered a gig that you feel like, well, this is too far outside or this isn't my thing, it's okay to say no. And it's bonus points if you can recommend somebody that's a better fit that's always appreciated. Or just communicate like I'd love to, but I don't know if I can quite, that would be new for me being just [00:44:00] transparent and open so that somebody can say, well, let's, let's go for it anyways. So that the person hiring you knows what they're getting out of it. It's okay to just say, I'll go for it, but just know that this is not quite what I do. that can work really well too. And it's okay to turn a gig down and just say, you know, next time I asked me next Max: Yeah. Like if somebody asked me to do like a jazz, band jazzing, I don't play that. I don't serve that. I won't be able to pull that off. Well, but this person could, you know, Stephen: Cool. Well, If people want to check out your drumming and some of the stuff that you've been working on, I mean, some of those music videos are really cool. They could check those out or even your own band, your personal projects. Where can they find you? Max: at Max Half Moon, or you can check out my band at Half Moon Rock, or you can check me out in some Villain of the Story music videos, and next year I'll be doing a lot of gigs with different bands and artists and stuff around the Twin Cities. Stephen: Sweet. Well, we'll put all those show notes. I was going to say, I'll put these in, but it probably might be you that puts these in. Um,[00:45:00] we'll put all those links in the show notes. And I think this wraps up today's episode. Before I let you guys go, you know, this is still pretty new. We're testing out different formats, different topics, all that kind of stuff. We hope that this was informative to you. If you are looking to do some of these sort of work for hire gigs, we'd love to hear from you, hit us up. Uh, you can find us at secrets from the scene, Instagram, Tik TOK, that kind of stuff. Send us a message. Let us know what you thought of the episode, what you want to hear more of, what you want to hear less We're an open book still. So, you know, we take everybody's feedback really seriously. We'd love if you subscribed on YouTube and all that kind of stuff left to review. That means the world to us. It really, really helps. but yeah, send an email or, just send us a DM. It goes a long ways for us to figure out where to go next with the podcast and what everybody wants to hear. So thanks for listening. If you stayed this long, we appreciate it and we'll see you next time. [00:46:00]