Ep. 12: Branding and The Power of Being Authentic with Nur-D

[00:00:00] Stephen: Welcome back to secrets from the scene on today's episode. We have Nur-D who I'm so excited to talk with today. There's so much to learn from him and I'm going to jump right into his bio because that says a lot. One of the fastest rising stars in Minnesota's music scene Nur-D bursts on the stage in 2018 after winning 95. 3 FM shut up and rap competition four times in a row and has been making headlines ever since performing on stages alongside national acts like Ludacris, Migos, Logic. [00:01:00] Tyler the Creator and the Wu Tang Clan, Nur-D is well on his way to becoming a household name. Voted Best New Minnesota Artist in 2019 from City Pages, rest in peace, headlining the Best New Bands show in 2020, 1st Avenue, and being voted Best Live Concert in 2021, again by City Pages and Best Minnesota Artist in 2022, Twin Cities Collective, Nur-D brings an explosion of energy every time he hits the stage. With nine full length projects in his discography, each with their own flair, Nur-D is something special for any occasion. Boasting a fervent fan base across the U S and around the globe, many people are calling Nur-D the next big thing out of Minnesota. Besides being a hip hop artist, Matt Allen, the man behind Nur-D is also an activist, community organizer, and a mutual aid worker who responds to the needs he sees around him. The community is at the heart of everything he does using his platform to fight for equality and raise funds for artists in our community. Please welcome Nur-D. [00:02:00] Stephen: So great to have you Matt: Thank you for having me, I'm super excited to be here! Stephen: You know, this city loves you because you've won pretty much every, like every big opportunity and award and everything you've done. You've done, you've got a show coming up with the Minnesota Orchestra, Matt: I do! Stephen: and of itself is kind of an amazing accomplishment. Matt: it's crazy, it's still blowing my mind, for sure. Stephen: You've done multiple huge sporting event things. I know like with the, Wolves, um, Minnesota United and the Wild, right? Matt: I've been with them a while. They've also been able to be around [00:03:00] for the twin stuff as well. So we've kind of been running around. The only thing, the only Minnesota teams I haven't worked with at this point are the Lynx and the Vikings. So, I got, it's only a matter of time. Stephen: Hit him up. Matt: try to. I want to play for the Lynx so bad. Like, Stephen: Do you do like national anthem stuff? Matt: See, no, I just like doing halftime shows. Like, that's really fun to do. Or like, special press events. We did, the one for the, the soccer, that would've came through the All Star game. When it was over here, we did the All Star game, as well. Along with,Khalid, which was really cool. Stephen: That's very Matt: it was super fun. Stephen: you've headlined first Avenue. you know, so it, it's just so impressive the whole resume and in a short amount of time, really? Matt: it's wild to think that I've only been doing this five years. Like, or at least, I've only been doing Nerd D for five years, which I think is something that people don't Stephen: Yeah. And, and that's a part of the story we should, let's get into, but the origins of Nur-D where it started, how it, how it kind of took Matt: Yeah, so I was, well, it [00:04:00] started, started way back in high school, hanging out with my brother and his friends after school and they would rap. They were all into hip hop and I was a rock and roll kid. that was my vibe. That's what I wanted to do. but I wanted to hang out and everyone was rapping. So at first, at first I had, I, I. At this persona because I love T Pain as everyone should everyone should Stephen: Right. Matt: Pain, but I love T Pain So I had this auto tune persona for a while. It was called voice box with two X's Because he was really cool. And so I just I would sing auto tunely on stuff But then like everyone's hip hop everyone's rapping and so that I needed a rap persona And everyone else had names everyone had like cool hip hop names, and I didn't have one I thought about my life, and throughout my life I had so many people be like, You're a nerd, you're like, you like comic books, you like these weird things, like these cartoons, you're just like a little, like a, you're a little nerd kid. And so I turned it into a, from an insult, into like, sort of like, my [00:05:00] own identity. And I came up with NerdD. Like, kind of like Heavy D, like Nerd D, and it was originally N E R D. And so that was what I would like call myself when we were rapping, with friends after school. Years pass. Years pass. And Go95, Point3, was doing this. It's a competition. It's called Shut Up and Rap. We talked, it's it was said in my bio. It was called Shut Up and Rap and it was just like a, it was a competition. You'd show up and, and do one song in front of some judges. And if you won, you got to get some studio time and they gave you a The free CDs made of your stuff and it was like that and I was in a rock and roll band at the time But I wanted to draw attention to the band So I was like i'm gonna put myself in this competition as a joke like I it'll be a joke like he's like ha ha this rock and roll band is doing hip hop The person's doing hip hop. It'll be fun and I could talk to people about our band just because we weren't getting any traction I showed up with Nur-D underneath the [00:06:00] name Nur-D I competed and the very first time I competed, I did not win. I got to the semifinals of the night and I lost to an R and B artist, by the name of, Tyler Perry, who was really good. And, but I fell in love with it. I fell in love with doing hip hop. I felt myself. I there's so much to do being a band that I think people don't know. And when you get to be your own person, when you get to do your own thing, you just have more creativity. So I said to myself, Oh no, I love this. And then from then on, it's just sort of been like a wild rollercoaster ride. I came back, and then I kept winning, and I, I just, I kept winning and winning and winning. Eventually, they, like, told me I couldn't do it anymore. I wasn't allowed to come back. but they offered me a spot at Soundset,2018. And From then on, the rest was history. Stephen: Was Soundset, like, what you won? Or would you just come as an opportunity out of Matt: It came as an opportunity. I wasn't supposed to be there. shout out to Augie5000, a [00:07:00] local music entity here, who really put a lot of passion into growing the scene. He just called me out of the blue. I'm working in my call center job. He calls me out of the blue and he's like, Hey, you've been winning. Like, you can't win anymore, do you want to go to Soundset, do you want to perform at Soundset? And, I think I just impressed him, or, and the team, I, I, really, it meant a lot to me to be in this competition. And I think they saw that, they saw, like, my hunger for this, and how much I came through it and really took it seriously. and so I think they just wanted to Offer me a chance to succeed. so I I took it even though I didn't have more than two songs made at the time So I had been switching off the two songs that I would perform at this competition because I only got one song So I only had two songs, but they asked me to do a 30 minute set at sunset. So I had no quick right Like 30 minutes worth of music in like two months time and um Stephen: get a band together Matt: [00:08:00] No, I, Sophia Aris actually DJ'd for me. because I didn't have my own, again, I didn't have my own DJ, I didn't have any sort of, like, group. Yeah, I performed at SoundSet to a couple thousand people. it was wild. I remember having people tell me, like, we were gonna go see Wu Tang Clan, but we stopped. And we decided to watch you instead. And I was just like, that's insane. Like, that's insane! And from there on out, it was, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do this with my life. this is the thing. but I had to change my name. a little bit at that time, which is huge. And I think people, when you're getting into this business, marketing, branding, finding yourself is huge. And, Auggie5000 pulled me aside after my set, at sound set, and he's like, Hey, I was trying to show some people. Your music to show them who you were. And we kept running into Pharrell's Band, NERD, like NERD, because Google doesn't know the difference between NER dash D and NERD. Like it, it's basically the same thing. And [00:09:00] one has done a far lot more than the other one has. And so GY was like, I couldn't find you. And I, I'll never do that again. Like, I'll never embarrass myself. Like, in front of these big Stephen: Sitting there scrolling, Matt: scrolling, trying to look for you, you should, you should probably change your name. And, I was like, oh, dang, I had gotten so close to this name, it had been like, this thing for me, So I went through a whole bunch of different thought processes, I had different names I could have called myself. But, I really liked Nur-D, I really liked what it was, and what it stood for, for me. And so, I just changed the E to a U, which, Phonetically sounds the same, but nothing else comes up. When you click, when you type that in, N U R Dash D, it comes up as me. And then so, I did it, and the rest is history. Now, NerveD is like, the thing. Stephen: And it's early on in your career. It was an easier thing to switch, I suppose, Matt: I was like, I had only, this is my first big show, if I hit it hard now and let everybody know, Hey, you know, we're putting the you in Nur-D. Like, like, I, that's how I marketed it. I was Stephen: Yeah, Matt: putting you [00:10:00] in Nur-D, Because you were the Stephen: that's brilliant. Yeah. Matt: the reason that I made it happen. really did switch the, the vibe to creating more of a group. which helped create what Nur-D is today. That's why I always reference my fans and my team because it's like, yo, that's what made it happen. It was a group of people believing in what I'm doing. There's like 75 percent of it. The talent's like 25 it's the getting the people to believe in that. Because there's so many talented people here in this state alone. There are so many incredibly talented people talent not in short supply. It's the belief in that talent that is something that's hard to cultivate. And so putting the you in Nur-D and focusing on the Nur-D club and focusing on like, how, how these people, how we can make this happen really just shot me off like a rock. Stephen: Oh, that's that's so good. There's a few things I want to kind of break down here before we move on and to join in on that on that [00:11:00] point of getting the people in there. I think that That's where we're going to spend some time, but before we get there, I want to just go over a couple of things. One is, you had mentioned, you know, starting to get a team together. Are you still completely doing this on your own? Do you have a manager? What does that look like Matt: Yeah, so I have, so the Nur-D team or the Nur-D camp is how I refer to it most of the time, is still just, it's run by me, but I'm growing to with people that I work with. I'm not working with any sort of entity. I'm not working with any sort of like label or, Business what I do is I find people friends or professionals with the talents that I need and we work together And build it from there. So I have a manager. She's amazing. She's the same person who organized my wedding like Just a friend that I've known for a while that has an amazing talent for Organizational skill has amazing talent for corporate conversations. Like does events like that kind of their whole bit. And so then I was [00:12:00] like, I need someone to help manage. they're like, okay, I can do that. They wanted to help. And so like were like, is the skill something that you could use? And I said, yeah. And then I have a music director who is just the person who plays saxophone in my band, Taxi Dave. Like, he's fantastic. He's a musical genius. And I was like, hey, I need someone to help, craft these things with me. And I, I don't have a whole lot of technical skill. I know what I like. And I know the sounds I wanted to make. Can you get it to so that other, performers can understand it better? Because I'm very much like, I want it to go like, Skibbity ba da da, ba da ba da bee ba ba. And they'll be like, oh. This is what you mean, Stephen: right. A translator. Matt: that translates it to the rest of the team.and so it's just collecting people. It's very much like a D and D party. Like I've just, I mean, Oh, you're a spell caster. Oh, you're a barbarian. Oh, you're, you're a rogue. We need a rogue. Like it's, that's the vibe. So it's just building with people. You find Stephen: Well, I think that, [00:13:00] you know, it. It sounds so simple, but that's not an easy thing to do because for one, you have to have good people around you. which means that you probably need to be a good person and be attracting Matt: that's a major Stephen: So that's a big part of it. But then also, you know, working with friends and things like that is tricky. You have to be professional. You have to have boundaries up and expectations that everybody feels like comfortable in their role and compensated fairly and all of those things. So it's, it's a complicated thing to do, but it is a good place to start if you feel like, okay, this is going a little faster than I can keep up with. Or if you just know that you inherently. Don't have certain skills that you need than trying to look around within your immediate community To find people that believe in you and want to commit to this now That's hard to do that get people to really buy in and it may not well, actually maybe this should be a question for you is at what point do you know when to start asking because I also Worry that people are gonna go. I need a team and they start asking for people when they really don't Matt: Yeah. I just had a conversation [00:14:00] with a young artist, at one of these shows we were performing at. And they were like, like, do you have a manager? I said, yes, I do. He's like, well, how do you know when you need a manager? And I was like, you'll know that you need a manager when you can't physically keep up. Mm hmm. not just like when you don't want to answer the emails, not like when you don't want to put the work in to do X, Y, Z, you're want to learn everything you possibly can about how to do the business, do it yourself. And when it starts getting so much, when the emails start becoming so much, when you start accidentally double booking yourself because you just have so much going on, you can't keep it all straight. That's when Stephen: Yeah. You know, and it might be, cause I I'm glad you said that because what I really was trying to get to the point is, is don't do it so early where you're, you're avoiding things because you don't want to do them. You need to learn how to do Matt: Know how to do everything because that's how you get messed up. People got Motown real talk. Like, like, like that's how it happened. It was like, Oh, 50 for all of my songs. That sounds great. Like if you don't know the business at all, It's going to be so much easier for people [00:15:00] to take advantage of you. Not to throw Taylor Swift, in, like she's doing. Totally fine for herself. Like, you know, she's doing, girl's got, girl's doing fine. But like, the whole issue with not owning her masters, not having to re release all of these songs, like, it's because when you're 16 and you just show up and someone's like, sign this and we'll give you, you know, 500, 000 That's more than you've ever seen. You don't know what this contract reads. You know, you're not doing that. That's so important. When it was time for me to decide whether I wanted to go to secondary education after high school, my first thought was like, no, I don't want to. After, like, being forced to, I decided that I wanted to go for music business. Not music performance, even though that's an option. Not to say there's anything wrong with music performance. But, I thought to myself, I can learn to be a better performer by performing more. I'll just learn as I go. That is easier to cut my teeth on. But, I don't want to learn by trial and error the business, because that [00:16:00] could be the difference of never working in this town again if I sign the wrong thing. Or you know, if I misunderstand the contract, or I don't understand how my music can be put up or where it can be. that's what I went for instead. Stephen: did you go? Matt: I went to North Central which wasn't particularly like a music centered organization, mind you, and they definitely have a whole lot of stuff that I'm not about. But what I will say is that that time learning the business was priceless. I know a lot more now because of what I went to school to learn. and that was because I had to learn that I wanted it. I didn't just jump into college just because it was time to jump into college after high school. I took some time to think about, okay, well, what do I need to do to get to where I want to go? Stephen: Yeah. Matt: So, you'll know when it's time to get a manager to put a team together. When it's become so crazy that you're starting to fumble things. And then also, what are you doing financially? Like how much money [00:17:00] is your stuff bringing in? I would say unless you are paying at least half of your bills with it, maybe wait. To get a manager and that's not saying oh, like it's all about money or whatever But it's like a manager should be compensated for the work they do if you aren't paying you how much less are you gonna pay somebody else, you know? So if you're not thinking about leaving your job Maybe wait, Stephen: one sort of rule of thumb I have for those kinds of things is you should be able to teach the job to whoever you hire. So if you don't know how to exactly how to do it and you haven't done it yourself enough, then you probably don't. Now there's probably exceptions to Matt: there's exceptions to every Stephen: but. But you should be able to confidently say, this is what I need. This is how you do it. This is how much I'm gonna pay you for. Then you're ready for it. If you're just looking for somebody to help you out, because you don't want to do it Matt: We don't want to do it or don't want to learn. I say you're hiring a manager, not a boss. So they're helping you manage what you should know how to do. They're just helping you manage [00:18:00] it. Keep it all together so that it's easier for you to make the decisions that you want to make. You're not hiring a boss, someone to tell you what to do, where to go, that's not what you're doing. So like Think of what mentality you're going into it with, and then you'll know whether you're ready for it or not. And also whether that person's ready for it or not. Some people think, oh, manager means I'm in charge. no. Like, you know what I mean? No, that's not how it works. So you want to make sure you know, otherwise it could be a whole issue later on down the line, especially if you're working with friends, which is so often how local acts start out. Very few people that I know have gone straight to working with a company who does this and the people that do often you don't hear about them after a while. New is hard to sell to people. New is hard to sell. We live in a wild and crazy time, so people want to know something that works. Or something they already liked. That's why half the movies are remakes. the franchise [00:19:00] IPs are so expensive. It's because people flock to what they know. So, if you're a new person rocking up to this company who does this, if they have somebody on their roster that already does what you do, There's more incentive to them for you not to do well. And to keep you at a certain position while they can build off of your fan base because they have someone who kind of already does what you do. So, building your own spot first from the ground up is advantageous. Because then you can make yourself undeniable. And then you're not so much of a threat and you're more of an opportunity. Stephen: have some leverage, Matt: some leverage. Stephen: so, 2018, you do SoundSet. What happens Matt: Well, then I just start playing shows. I think I did anything and everything that came my way for A whole year, just show after show after show. people, 200 people, yes. Oh hey, we're doing a fundraiser, yes. Oh hey, the school's opening, yes. I just said yes to almost [00:20:00] everything. To show up and crushed it. And not in like a, I'm so awesome kind of way, but literally just like My plan was every show that I went to Whether it was 7 people or 700 people, I'm going to, like, play like it's the Super Bowl. Because I want people to be like, this person really loves this. Cause I did. And so that's what I did for a year. And then I get a band together, get my old band, parts of my old band, I put them like, hey, like I'm doing this thing now. Jump on board I think I finally got it. we start doing shows big Elaborate like I'm not making any money. I'm working at a call center and taking the money from that I live in a one bedroom apartment with roommates I'm just spending all my money to put on these massive shows pay My band and I'm like we're gonna Make sure that they leave this going like this was incredible for 10 bucks. We saw something that was out of this world. I do that for a year and I get called for, I first have to do best new bands in 2019 or 2020 [00:21:00] technically. I also go on tour with brother Ali for my first ever multi stop state tour, Stephen: Super Matt: which was very fun and very cool. I got to see a lot, learn a lot. about the business and just about what it's like to do shows around the country. Get the call for 2020. They say, Hey, best new bands. I remember what they offered monetarily was like. Nothing. It was like, 200 bucks. And I remember just thinking to myself, This thing is sold out, there's 1, 500 people that come in here. 200 bucks, like, that's, like, okay. But then I said, okay, I want a headline. And they're like, well, we're gonna look at it. I said, nah, nah, nah, nah, I have 13 people in my band. I want a headline. I guarantee you, this is the move. And, and this is, I didn't know who else was booked on the show already. I just was just like, I need this. Let me do it. Let me prove that I deserve that spot, at the very least. And they said, okay. And then we go in there and we just Rip it we're wearing like our space jam outfits and we just go and I didn't know how amazing the other bands were gonna be that [00:22:00] night And so when we saw that we're like, oh no, we really need to be good Because like we demanded this highlighting spot and these people are Fantastic. Like May Simpson, May Simpson, if you ever heard of them, it's crazy. So I remember we were just standing in the back, like, what are we going to do? Like, we really need to nail it. And we did, we went out on stage and we put on one of the best shows that I've ever done. And we got voted best live concert that year. It's 2020. There's this thing going on in the in the background of the world I'm not paying any Stephen: Right. Yeah. Matt: like, because I'm like, Oh, yes, well, I, I remember quitting my job walking out in November of 2019. quitting my job because now I'm making me my whole 2020s booked with shows I won pick to click for city pages. So like I'm on my faces on all these magazines and I'm like, out of here. Nowhere but up. 2019, everything in the future is just impossible. no world changing events at all, other than my rise to music stardom. I quit [00:23:00] my job, A little bit after the first, Best New Band show, after everyone's like raving about how awesome it was, because I was in January. all of a sudden, you know, there's little chirps about, like, stuff shutting down. And I'm just like, what's going on? I'm like, oh no. It was very American of me. I was like, that sucks for them. But we'll be fine. because it's America. What a statement. And we'll be fine, because we live in America. Stephen: up until that point, to be fair, that was kind of the Matt: That was the vibe. That was Stephen: would, you would hear of like this flu or this thing, but it was overseas and it never mattered to Matt: Yeah, yeah, we were just like, it was very, like I said, it was very American of me. I was just like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. And then we get a call, and everything gets shut down. Like, the call we got was we were supposed to do the opening gig for Minnesota United. We were supposed to open the season. And we get a call and they're like, they're canceling the season. And I was like, if they're canceling soccer, if they're canceling football, when the NBA and the, and the, and the college March Madness got shut down. I was like, dang, that's serious. But when they told me [00:24:00] they were canceling soccer somehow. It clicked because soccer fans are insane like they are insane if they break their arm in the parking lot They will wait until the match is over to go to the hospital. You know what I mean? Like it's serious So if they're shutting that down sure enough in the course of Two days I lost every single show that I had booked for 2020 and I had gotten engaged like we were like my whole life was about to like change I had budgeted my life based off all these shows were going to be. And now I have no job, no income coming in. I remember I'm sitting on the couch just looking at the phone. my my fiance is at work. She doesn't know. All this has just happened and I'm like, well, I had quit my job. I am a college dropout with no discernible skills. what am I going to do? but what I thought at that moment, right after that, what am I going to do? My thought process was. I am [00:25:00] 2019's best new artist in Minnesota. I am 2020 headlining best new bands. I have gotten all these accolades in the last two years. And if I'm feeling this, I know my other, my music community is feeling this too. I have all the, the forward momentum. I may be able to ride this out, but other people might, might not. And so that's when we decided to make the Minnesota, Artist. I called up my DJ, DJ Hayes. And I said, we need to figure out how to do concerts over zoom. And he said, what? I was like, we need to figure out how to do concerts over zoom. If I can share my computer audio with someone in zoom, if we make. The music come out of my computer, we should be able to get a clear enough sound to them, which means we can put on a concert. I don't know how to do that, but we, if we figure that out, we should do it. And then he figured it out. We plugged random stuff into like various computers and things, and we started doing concerts over Zoom. We were one of the first, like, local artists to really start doing that on a [00:26:00] big scale. We performed for the Kennedy Center, we performed for KDWB, which is unheard of for a local artist to get on iHeartRadio programming. We did that. We also performed for the Paisley Park. We were the only live streamed concert from Paisley Park in 2020. We were the first. And like during the, we were the first and only during the lockdown, we performed multiple concerts and each of those concert, we've raised money for local artists because during that time, there was like an artist relief fund that was existed, but it was like, you had to fill out all these forms and it was like this whole like bureaucracy sort of thing. And it really seemed like only certain people were going to get it. So we were just like. Send the money to this Venmo account, and if you're an artist and you need money for your gas, your food, your water, your phone, your car, just say, Hi, I'm so and so, I'm an artist here in Minnesota, and we will just send you the money you need. That's it. The end. We won't ask you any questions. You can [00:27:00] lie. You can lie, and we'll just give it to you. Because, like, it's not our job to police why you need the money. It's our job to help our community in time of need. So that's what we did and we did that all 2020 alongside the uprising that happened at the same time, after George Floyd was murdered, hitting up on the streets, working with the movement and everything sort of built in tandem. Nur-D was caught in the middle of all of that all at the same time, trying to be an artist while the world is essentially burning to the ground is a wild experience that I feel is going to be talked about in much later detail. So that's going to be our. Renaissance, I think, when people talk about where they were. And so we just did that for the all 2020, all 2021. And it's just sort of been the game since I say, like, we're like pirates. We're like. The Straw Hat Pirates. run around, we do these shows, we piss off people in power, and And somehow people still like us, and people still invite us to do things, [00:28:00] we just keep growing, and it's really fun, but it's a lot of work. Stephen: I mean, I have theories on, on why that is, but, I have one more question before we kind of get into that, which is, I do think it's helpful for people to kind of hear about your transition from the band, PreNur-D, into being Nur-D. Matt: Yeah. Stephen: Because you were the front man in the band too, right? And obviously the front man here. Talk to me about that transition, about the decision, how you manage it with the band members and all of that kind of thing. Matt: So, before Nur-D, way back in the olden times, back in the very, very early aughts, I was in a band, we were called Three Man Trio, originally, and then we switched our name to Saving Vinyl City, which I still think is a really dope name, by the way, Saving Vinyl City, and we did Saving Vinyl City for about, seven years, which is again, which I tell people like I've only been doing Nur-D for five, but I've been doing music for quite some time. it just, at the time we were a multicultural band with a fat black man. [00:29:00] This is pre CeeLo Green's, forget you. So that wasn't a thing. It just wasn't a thing. It just was not something that was going to happen. I don't think we could have been talented enough. I just don't think it was gonna happen. Not out of Minnesota. Like, it just wasn't. So we were fighting uphill to a door that was locked. Essentially. But we worked at it for a really long time. But after a certain point, I realized that I was working out for it more and harder than the rest of the people in the band. And they'll tell you this because most of them are in my band now. I remember sitting down with everybody, and I said, Hey, I feel like I'm kind of like pushing this along by myself. And, you know, you guys are getting close to ending college, you know what I mean? And starting your careers living your lives. I'm going to not do anything for a month. If we don't get booked. If we don't if I don't see like significant social media posts. if nothing changes, then I think we should call it because I'm What we had been doing this whole time is we've been working as a team. I was the front man, but I really, it was very much like a, we [00:30:00] vote, we do things together. Like we turned down a massive opportunity, to play at first Avenue main room years before I ended up doing it as your Nur-D, because one of our members was in a play and we didn't, we don't perform unless we all perform. You know what I mean? Like, Oh, could we have gotten a, like a sub guitar player? Yeah. But like, we all. said that we're the band, and so if we don't get all of us, you don't get any of us, which looking back on it now was like a crazy decision. Stephen: Yeah, I would agree. So It was a wild decision. take this month off. Matt: we took this month off and nothing happens. I come back and I'm like, okay, Hey, and they're like, yeah, we kind of figured because we didn't do anything. And then so we ended the band amicably, which I think is a very, is a rarity. Sometimes when a band falls apart, especially one that's been going on for like seven years. We had changed our name to Black Genesis at that point. Not because we were a metal band, but because we were like Genesis, but if Phil Collins was black. So, we, we called it [00:31:00] quits, amicably. And I had Just done Shut Up and Rap in that month where I wasn't doing Stephen: Okay. Matt: And so now I come back and I'm like, I really like this other thing. We didn't do anything for this band, so I think I'm gonna transition. And I remember the members of my band, a few of them were like, Yo, this Nur-D thing that you just did, this thing that you do, like that we've seen you do, this is cool. This is something really great. You should run with that. Like, run with that, cause there's something special there. And so I did. And then once it got to the point where I needed a band, I circled back and I said, Hey, Nerd D, I want to play some shows, but I want to have a live band. I already know you guys. Stephen: hmm. Yeah. Matt: be willing to play for me? It'd be di It's different. We're not playing With each other, you'll be playing for me. So it's a different dynamic, but I'd like you to play. And they were like, yeah. And I honestly, and I tell you this to people who are in a position where maybe you're in a band that you don't feel whatever. I realized once that happened, that I had been hiding [00:32:00] behind the band. I was the front man, but only in name only. I didn't. I didn't want to outshine anybody I didn't want to be like that person that was like the person who's in charge You know every movie every like movie. There's like oh you who are you you think you're so good It doesn't that's what I really hid behind This idea that we had to do everything together and I couldn't step up and be fantastic because I didn't want To overshadow anybody, once you get that mentality out of your head to know that somebody has to be spectacular, it has to be that way in order for this job. Talent is in not in short supply. So it's the building of this and that mythos is a big part of it. When I took on the thing like I'm going to make the decisions and I'll tell you what to do. A lot of my band members liked it more because at the end of the day, like we want to be musicians. We don't want to run a business. I want to play guitar the best ever. I don't want to decide what states we do, or what's the route of the tour, or what van we buy, or da da da da, like, I don't want to make those [00:33:00] decisions. I want to shred. And that's what you've asked me to do, and so I'll do that enthusiastically, as opposed to sort of like, I'm so bogged down from making everyday band business decisions that when I get to a show, I'm not even having Stephen: Yeah. I'm so glad you're sharing this because it's a conversation that comes up a lot. And a conversation that I have with a lot of clients, bands, bands that have clearly a band leader, listen, the number one thing that's gonna stop your band is that your band's going to break up. Most bands do. Very few actually stay together forever. They stay together as long as they can. and then it's over. And a big part of the reason why bands break up is because there's not clear conversation, there's not clearly defined roles of who's gonna do what. I think A common mistake that's made is that people default to being a democracy. Now you think, well, that should be great, right? Well, for some bands it might be, but you have to consider if everyone is invested equally and [00:34:00] most of the time the answer is no. I see time and time again where there's one person that's clearly the band leader and it might be because they're the most passionate about it. They're working the hardest. They're booking the shows, they're setting up studio time and so on. Maybe it's because they're the songwriter. it could be a number of things, but you can see that this person's running things and everyone else is kind of along for the ride. I'm not saying that in a bad way. Like you said, certain bandmates might go, I've got other things in my life. I've got kids, I've got a different job. I don't want to do this full time, but I do love playing music. And if you can give me. a position in your band to just do this. That's actually what I'm looking for. We had another episode with Christian Grey, villain of the story, local band. And they did just this thing where they all decided like who has what roles and they're not necessarily equal. And so the pay is not equal. It doesn't have to be. And since they did that, they've been far more successful with. Just running the actual business. And I can't say that enough that if you feel [00:35:00] like it's clearly kind of an unequal situation in your band, it might be worthwhile to have a conversation about, all right, well, if somebody is going to be doing all the work, you could divvy up pay differently. You can divvy up voting rights differently. Not, not everybody has to have the same one to one vote. Matt: Yeah, think of it like a sled dog team what I talk about all the time. You watch Balto Somebody needs to be in front. Someone needs to be the one who just makes the decision if we go right or left It's not saying that they're better than you. That's not saying that you're somehow less than them It's just that that responsibility needs to be held by somebody because if it's always a group thing always every time Eventually, you're gonna run into things that you can't Or you're going to take too long to surmount and you're going to miss an opportunity. It's just how the business is. You need to know what kind of group you have Stephen: Yes. Matt: have an honest conversation about your desires and what you want and be willing to be vulnerable. You're going to be making music with these people, [00:36:00] presumably, forever. We almost called ourselves Save the Cheerleader. That was almost our band name because we loved Heroes. Season 1 of Heroes. We loved it so much because Save the Cheerleader, Save the World was like the tagline of the show. We were almost Say the Cheerleader, but we said to ourselves we want to play music until we're like 50 Until we're 60, that's as old as we could think of at the time. I don't want to be a 50 year old called Say the Cheerleader. We were thinking This is something we want to do forever. So let's make decisions that way. And you should be thinking about that way all the time if you're making a band. so figure out, are we the type of group that might need someone to be in charge? And I could just focus on being really good at this thing. Stephen: Yeah. sometimes there are successful bands that do have, everybody's an equal member, everybody shares writing credits that does exist and that can work Matt: it's a Stephen: if that seems like everybody feels comfortable in that role because everyone is equally invested in and doing their part, then sure. Stick with that. But if you do find that, nope, this is kind of one [00:37:00] person's this is one person's dream then. it doesn't give you the right then to be a, like, Matt: don't be a dick about it. Stephen: you still have to then, just because you might be in charge doesn't mean you shouldn't take everyone else's Matt: That's what a good Stephen: very, very seriously. You could still treat it as if everyone has a vote, but sometimes, again, it just comes down to, well, if somebody's in this for the long haul and somebody's not, if it's that unfair, the band's gonna break Matt: Yeah. and this is what we did when we made our amical split. internally ask yourself, If this band goes under, who loses what? Like, ask yourself that question. If this band goes under, who loses what? If so and so is playing in three other bands, all of them doing the same amount of levels of success, and this one goes under, will they just be in three other bands, and, nothing really changes other than they have an extra Wednesday or Thursday or Saturday to do another show? Okay, well then maybe they, aren't the person who should decide whether or not you take the big gig or not because they don't need it. You know what [00:38:00] I mean? what if this person works a full 9 5 of the career of their dreams and they just do this on the weekends because it's fun? Stephen: Right. Matt: If the band breaks up, that's a bummer, but like, alright, like, I live my life. You know what I'm saying? So ask yourself. If this ends, if you're sitting here going like, If this, I don't know what I'll do. Like, if you're the one sitting around going like, If this breaks up, I don't know what I'll do. I don't know what else to do. You know, I'm working, I'm working DoorDash and eight other little tiny jobs so I can keep doing this full time. Maybe you're the person. Maybe this is your thing. and it'll be okay. I always say, if everybody's eating, They won't look at everybody else's plate. Ask yourself if your friend who's really passionate about this job made 5 million and you made two, are you upset? And if your answer is yes, check yourself. Cause why you made 2 million Stephen: Sure. Matt: doing something that you love. Like, and all you had to do was just be on board from, with someone that you trust and apparently like being around, decision making. That's weird that [00:39:00] you'd be upset about that. So like, it's something that you have to really, it takes a lot of vulnerability, takes a lot of trust in your friends, these people you're building a job with and building a, like a dream with, and really coming with some like, honesty. Stephen: Yeah. All right. So I want to pivot the conversation over to, What I think is one of your superpowers in the sense that, I've followed you online for a while, and I think that you're just extremely good at being you being authentic, essentially. And I don't want to undervalue in this conversation, the fact that your music is also very, very good. And that's, and that's why, you know, things are doing well, I also don't want to ignore the fact that because you're so good at sort of being authentic online that that's a huge, part of the success and what's attracting opportunities to you over these last five years. has that been a natural thing for you or is it something that you conscientiously work at? Matt: it wasn't when I started doing music. I remember when I started doing music. I was very by the [00:40:00] numbers like it was very much like I listen to a lot of people who's like this is what the industry is what you should do. These are what cool people do da da da. And that, there's a version of that that works for people, I think. the farther away you are from the, like, American Western ideal, the harder it might be to follow those same rules, I think. just because the system isn't designed for you to succeed, but, this is so weird that you're asking because I've had some time to think about it. I remember watching the soldier boy documentary. The Soulja Boy documentary. Stephen: realize there was a Matt: There's a documentary. There's a documentary. it was just about how he posted on MySpace every day. Stephen: Okay. Matt: And like, talked to his fans every day. And was just Soulja Boy, for whatever it was worth. He was just like, this is how I do it, right? Every day. And he did that so much, By the time he dropped, dance, the one that everybody knows, he had so many followers and so many fans that even though [00:41:00] the song was just, is just nonsense, you know what I mean, and a little dance to do that they did in high school gymnasiums, they did it in every high school gymnasium across the country. the time of the documentary, Soulja Boy had more number one hits than Jay Z. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's insane. But because what he did, he was like, I'm going to be myself. I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to be who I am. And if you're into it, then you'll be in for the ride. And I took that. And my love of professional wrestling, which again, is I'm a character. This is what my character is about. This is what I do. And you can be a fan or not. There's a bunch of other guys who do different things. But we're all kind of wrestlers. So you pick your favorite. But if you're my favorite, you're a part of DX. Or you're a part of the Nation of Domination. Or you're the New Day. You're The New Day rocks. the Bullet Club. which is what I [00:42:00] took, and transformed into the Nur-D Club. Like, you're a part of this group. It doesn't matter, and you're weird, and you're like us. So here's a t shirt that says that you're like us. And then you wear it out, and someone says, That's a cool t shirt, and you're like, Oh, you wanna be a part of this t shirt? We listen to this person, and here's your shirt. You take all of that energy and you put it together and you can that's the Nur-D club and I mean this I mean this so much Professional wrestling is one of the was the most amazing art forms in the history of art form That's just be bursley if you can sell fake Scripted fighting to stadiums of people across the world, 365 days of the year, you can sell anything you could do it. It's about creating that feeling of belonging and teamwork and camaraderie. And that's what I set out to do because my music isn't for everybody Stephen: no, no, no. Matt: It's not for everybody. But what I did was like i'm gonna find my people I'm gonna show them that i'm like them And [00:43:00] they're like me and then i'm gonna say like if you're into this Listen to this song and i'm gonna make this song the best pot I possibly can and then we'll push this forward together Stephen: I love that and I want to, I want to zoom into a few of those points because particularly the last one you sang, you know, my music's not for everybody. Just being bold about that. There are so many artists that are scared, scared of that. And I think that that's really one of the things holding people back is that Unless you're making something specific enough that it excludes people, it's probably not attracting anyone. You need to be that specific. And I think that some people will look at this and go, Well, I'm not that interesting. I just, I like nature and, and walks down the street. Like nothing, there's nothing exciting. I don't like professional wrestling or whatever. But that's not really the point. Sure. Those were things in your personality that you took and heightened. And at least from an outside perspective, it seems that your brand is still very much your personality, but just dialed up, Matt: Yeah, no, it's it's it's Matt to [00:44:00] 11. Stephen: Yeah, and I think that that's one of the most common ways to start building a brand is just around whoever the front person or that artist's personality is, and just picking the things that feel the most compelling that they want to lean into for whatever reasons. But it doesn't always have to be based on personality. You can build a completely different persona or use some other theme or something like that. You don't have to be a huge extrovert because trust me, if you decide, well, my persona is kind of to be shy and these sorts of things, but if you find a way to communicate that in your voice, you will find an audience that loves it for that Matt: There's 8 billion people on the planet, right? Even if 1 percent of them feels the way that you do. That's a fan base that will let you eat for the rest of your life and your children's children eat for the rest of their life. So don't worry about there's not enough people who like what I like or act how I [00:45:00] act. That's A given, you will always have more people who aren't like you than people who are just because you're an individual, we're lucky to live in a world a live in a time period where we're talking about the world. When I put a song on Spotify, if you live in Madagascar, you can hear it. like, as long as you have access to the music I put out, the various ways of listening to music, you can find a fan base. There is nothing holding you back. So don't pigeonhole yourself and don't not share yourself because you think that there's not enough people like you. There are. There 100 percent are. Stephen: Yeah. I just think that people are. scared, essentially, for lack of any better way of putting it, they're just scared of trying to be that open and authentic, Matt: It's vulnerability. It's Stephen: but people are very much drawn to it, and there's trust that's developed over time. Now, my question for you, though, is, did that specifically come natural? Like, did it start there? Because I've followed you for the last year, maybe, but what was it like before that? Matt: like I said, [00:46:00] I had done Saving Vinyl City and Black Genesis for so long. I had remembered, I said to myself, I'm going to do this the way I want to, this Nur-D thing. And if it doesn't work and people aren't into it, I just won't do it. But unlike trying to do it the industry way. Which is, like, just to be cool, to chase the trends, and to follow the things that are like, you know, like, I don't want to do that. I want to do me. I want to be weird, I'm going to like the things I like, I'm going to talk about the things I like to talk about, and just be 100 percent myself. And if it doesn't work, then I'll find something else to do. so starting NerdD, it was from the beginning. Stephen: Okay, so right away you just said I'm gonna go all in on this and then got so much good feedback right away. Things are working. So it's Matt: looking back on it, I was like, of course. Because there's a lot of people who like that stuff. There's a lot of people who think the way you do about these things. There's a lot of people in similar situations. I heard, Coloring Book by Chance the Rapper for the first time, and I said, This sounds like me, this sounds like how I was raised, this sounds like where I'm at, like, emotionally, spiritually, how I want to [00:47:00] talk about things, like, this sounds like me. There's rap for people like me. And I thought to myself, if he can make that, and we've never met, and I love it, then if I make something about what I'm about, then I guarantee somebody's gonna know it. You know what I mean? And I just did, and I just, I was like, I'm going to vibe this way. And It worked out, but from the start of Nur-D, I grit my teeth and said, I'm not going to hide me. I can't because I don't want to become famous being someone I'm not because that's how people lose themselves. Stephen: Or quit because it's just not Matt: because now you're just, now you're just playing a part, and unless you're like frickin David Bowie and your whole bit is to keep making up different versions of Stephen: That's the whole Matt: which is a thing, which is a fine way to go, you're McFolying it, I'm cool with it, like there's nothing wrong with that, but then you have to go in the mentality of like, This character likes this, and this character likes this, and know that people might [00:48:00] prefer Slim White Duke over Ziggy Stardust, like they might, you know what I mean? And you just might have to live with that. Cool. You know what I mean? Cool. That's fine. That's the vibe. But like, you have to decide what you're gonna do. Either you're going to put on a persona, and that's a persona that you enjoy putting on, or you have to be willing to let the universe know who you are and what you're about, and then people will like you for you. Stephen: Yeah, it doesn't have to be outrageous. It doesn't have to be, you know, super funny or, you know, you see that and you go, well, that's not me. It's okay. It's okay. As long as whatever you do is consistent and things can change how would you say your brand has developed over the years? Matt: I will say that 2020 really changed things up, I think. I made my first big decision on being authentic in 2020 really. Cause 2018 I come out, black nerd, love yourself, [00:49:00] body positivity. Those were the pillars, right? Which is great, people were loving it, like loving it. I got all the accolades, you know what I mean, I do all the stuff. But 2020 comes around, and I'm out there on the street. Fighting, for, you know, justice and freedom and all this stuff with these people in the movement who've been doing this for decades. And I'm really becoming entrenched with the systematic oppression of a people, my people. And Well, I've always, I mean, I've always been black, but I've, I've always, this has always been who I was. It just wasn't a part of my music. Not because I was hiding it or anything. It just wasn't what I was writing about. You know what I mean? Because that just wasn't what I was doing. But in 2020, here I am every night, every day. I'm doing this stuff and it's, that's what I want to write about. That's what I want to sing about. And, I remember Talking to my, my DJ, talking to my friends and my family and like some of the people I trust doing music and I was like, I want to talk about this stuff in my music. there was a first aid station outside of the Kmart [00:50:00] in Minneapolis and I had got shot with a non lethal round while we were trying to get, , injured people out of there. And, at the time, I didn't know it was non lethal. I just, I just remember feeling, getting hit in the hip really hard. And I was like, oh, well, I'm dead. Like, alright, cool. That's how, that's how your life ends. In that moment, I was like Have I said everything? Have I said everything that I'm about? Am I gonna get Martin Luther King, will people use my stuff to sell their propaganda later on? Like, was I specific? And I realized the answer was, no I wasn't. You know what I mean? Not that I was hiding anything, I wasn't doing anything, but I wasn't specific. And so I came out and I said, alright, I'm gonna make this music. I have two albums, 38th and Chicago Avenue. And I'm like, I'm going to write about this. And even as I was doing this, like, I know I am going to lose fans because everybody wants to love themselves. Everybody loves body positivity. Very few people enjoy dismantling systematic oppression. It's its own [00:51:00] thing, you know, but I knew, that it wouldn't be right. I wouldn't be me if I didn't talk about it. And so I said, well, here we go. I put out the two albums. And I lost fans. I did. I had people message me and say really mean things. like we used to listen to you, I used to love you, da da da da da. Not anymore. You're XYZ. But I gained so many more. And the reason was, is because What I didn't know was that there are a bunch of people out there like we like you but like there's things that we care about that are more important and so we just don't really vibe with you because you don't really seem to stand for that stuff and so when I was like I do they're like oh cool we do too and so yeah while I lost a sect of group they were a group of people that I wouldn't really wanted to hang out with anyway because I was myself my fan base grew because I was growing Stephen: that's so important, but I think the bottom line is it just has to be you, no matter what it is, if you end up incorporating larger causes into your [00:52:00] messaging, into your brand, fine, there's a lot of advantages, but there are some disadvantages. Matt: always disadvantages, and I mean it, and I meant it, it's because I was doing it. so I say that, to specifically say, don't take up a cause because you think it's gonna get your Stephen: Yeah, that would be a terrible, terrible Matt: that's a, that's a bad idea because once you say that you're about that life, whatever that life happens to be, once you say you're about that life that you're a person that they can come to, if they don't see the proof of that in what you actually are about, it will be a negative thing. Stephen: Absolutely. People can smell bullshit. They will Matt: and and they will so it's just like just be be real if you're not about a thing if you're not ready to jump Into a particular cause or activity then don't like obviously educate yourself on things that are Stephen: Don't pick something going, I think I can gain more fans if I take this stance. That's a terrible Matt: That's the worst idea as long as you believe it, and you're living that life, Good. And if your life changes, and you learn, and you take a [00:53:00] different stance than you took before, your fans will move with you, because You've been open and honest the whole time. If you say, Hey, I said X, Y, Z before, but yo, I actually just learned more about the situation. And actually now I'm saying ABC, people will be able to track the progression. People can tell when someone's switching up because it's convenient. So like, as long as you're just like, this is my journey, I'm on it. I'm rocking the whole time Stephen: Yeah. Matt: is real. And people will be able to see that and your brand will be better. because of it because it's you because it's who you are and you're never having to Start putting on a mask every time you go outside Stephen: Yeah. The benefit of being more than just your personality by having more in your brand, in your case, activism and being a community organizer and helping other people is that overall brands becomes something that people can talk about way easier. And the dirty secret is, is that when it comes to like. publicity, getting write ups and that kind of thing. the journalists, the writers, they're [00:54:00] often just grabbing what you wrote and rephrasing it. So the better that your story is, the more enticing your story is, the easier it is that their job becomes. you know, the stronger your brand is right from the get go where they don't even have to do anything. Matt: yeah, Stephen: The more likely you're gonna get featured and if you do a google on Nur-D you will see an endless amount of press Just from a business standpoint, because you've, earned and, you know, deserve all of that. But from a business standpoint, it's just, it's brilliant. Like, you can just look at it and you can go, yeah, I get how this bio is this writer. And they just took this and they, this makes for a better positioning for their company. Like, all of it makes sense. And, It's kudos to you because your brand is strong. It's a full picture. It's not just like a front that's like, okay, here's what this is going to be. It's so authentic. You're living the part. You back it up every day on social media in terms of showing [00:55:00] up and being there. again, it seems so simple because you're like, yeah, I'm just being me, I'm doing the things that I care about. But for whatever reason, it's just, it is very hard, I think, for people to totally get the all encompassing picture of it. And they'll just maybe narrow in on one thing or be too scared to sort of show every piece of their personality. Matt: it's okay to have parts of yourself that are private that's not saying that you have to open up yourself to display like you're like a zoo animal what I'm saying is that Be authentic to yourself live out Because this is the job one of the things that I and not everybody subscribes to this and and they don't need to it's one of the beautiful Things about this industry. There's a lot of ways to do it. I Live this industry out as this is a privilege This job that I have is a privilege. I make an absorbent amount of money compared to some other people who work in different professions that I would say do more for the [00:56:00] tangible good of my community. There are EMS workers, there are nurses that work 20 hour shifts, right? Cleaning bedpans and scraping bedsores. Like, real serious stuff. And they will spend 20, 25, 35 to come see me for a half an hour, perform music that I wrote in my underwear. You know what I mean? This is a gift. It is a privilege and therefore I am going to work to make sure that the brand that you're consuming is one that you can feel good about that means. I'm going to be honest with you. I'm not going to be like, Oh, I'm not going to share this. If I believe in it, I'm not going to do that. No, no, no, no. It's not about being strategic because by paying for a ticket. You've earned this like honesty for me, because this is what I do. This is what I do to be able to give back. So I'm going to be as honest and open as I can. And I really think that other artists should live that way as well. Be as honest and open as you can be show yourself. Don't [00:57:00] worry about if. Everyone's going to love it. Just be like, Hey, if you're into nature walks, here are the trails that I enjoy. Stephen: It doesn't have to be that complex. Matt: It's just that. It's just that. If you like maple leaves, so do I. I wrote a song called Maple Leaves. Here's a picture of my favorite one. I took when I was seven. people love that why because now you're they're a part of it. You're letting them be a part That's why it's a club the little monsters the believers the Directioners like that all the swifties What they have in common is they are part of a team. Stephen: They feel like they're a part of a community and it's, it's because people are looking for emotional connection and there's a lot of different emotions, right? And so if the emotion is based around things like positivity, for instance, then that can bring a community together. But your emotion could be on admiration for yeah, maple leaves or Matt: Yeah Stephen: you're saying. It can be anything. There can be emotions for. Any type of person, so you pick what you think [00:58:00] you can keep up with that feels like this does renew me. This is something I want to do every day. As long as you pick, that's what we mean by being authentic. And then if you can convey an emotion with your brand, people will see you as a leader. If you're not conveying any sort of emotion, then they won't. They'll just find somebody else that sounds pretty much like you and is as talented as you and follow them that are creating some sort of an emotion. Matt: and I mean this in the best way, if you're just going to give people what you think they want, you're too late. There are businesses with billions of dollars cranking out top 40 so and sos to do that. You coming in from the whatever local place that you're at will not. Do that you will not beat that if that's what your goal is you won't you just won't There's for every story of the band that gets the call up and makes it there are a million bands that did it Statistically speaking if you're just going to be the next [00:59:00] flavor of the week. It's too late. So might as well be Because they can't recreate that. They can't recreate that. They can recreate some bubblegum top 40. That's easy. there's math behind it. They do it all the time. but they can't make you. Which is why they eventually end up paying for you, which is why people blow up. ever since TikTok, even look at all the artists we have now that are famous. Now, half of them started off SoundCloud. little things are uploading themselves. YouTube, Lil Nas X, YouTube video of him playing Red Dead Redemption 2 with his music in the background for whole town road. He wasn't even in the music video like the first official thing. It was just Red Dead Redemption 2 So you can just be you Like that's the best way now. That's the only thing that's left It's the only commodity that can't be mass produced anymore is you Stephen: Absolutely. And you just have to find it. Now, finding it is not easy for everyone. Some people [01:00:00] might just immediately go, okay, I know exactly what that means. And some people might, may not. I do have a free branding guide that I use for my clients. That's basically just a series of questions and you probably won't even be able to answer all of them. The first time you go through it, the point is, is you just, you answer what you can and you keep going through it every month or every year, however often you can, and it will help you narrow down it will give you some boundaries. do you have certain like classifications for how you think of your brand? Matt: um, when I, way back in the day, I was to, uh, DJ Bonix, who was Wiz Khalifa's DJ, and he said, when we started, threw, like, five words up on the board that was gonna be our brand, and then we whittled it down until we only had one word, and their word and so then they built The brand around that and look at it. It worked great. Can you listen to this song while you're smoking? Yes. Can you wear this outfit while one smokes? Yes. Can you do this or do this post? [01:01:00] Does this cater to this lifestyle? Then as long as it fits in there, then it. I did that same exercise. I didn't will it one. I will let it down to three because I just, I just, these three were Black. If it falls into those three Stephen: Yeah, I love that. Because then you can start thinking like, does this show fit my brand? Does this post fit my brand? Does this merch fit my Matt: does venue fit this fit with Case in point, I've turned down shows. I've turned down collaborations. Not that they weren't amazing but they don't fit what I'm And that's okay. I remember, this is really, there's it's a little bit more of like a moral stance, but still, there was this booking, that at the time was the most I'd ever been booked for. Like 000. Crazy At the time, And the person that was not treating the community with care. Was talking really wild, people were upset [01:02:00] about it and I had a fan hit me up and they said, hey we saw that you were playing this show I just want to let you know what this person had said and done You I'm not gonna be mad if you do I just wanted to let you know that And I remember I got it was just the one Message and then I got another one from a different person and same situation. There were tears They were crying and they was like we don't hate you. We don't we love you. We support you We just want to let you know that this has so after I got messages multiple messages from my fan base, I said to myself, 000 is a lot of money. There's a lot of money to do performance. I've only been performing for four years. Like, some people have never seen that money. They've been working for even if it was just I gotta, how many times that one fan by the thousands that haven't said anything? Is this gonna serve me ultimately? If my goal is to perform forever, will this show do that, or will I lose fans? Will they be able to be like, maybe he doesn't vibe with some of the things he said. So I I said, no, I said, I can't, I [01:03:00] left the show. I said, I can't do it. I remember crying on the bathroom floor because I told my fiance at the time. I don't know what we're going to do. I don't know how we're going to pay. For anything that was going to be the money, just isn't Nur-D It just isn't Nur-D. And I won't do it. And then literally a week later, I got hit up like, Hey, we just had someone cancel and it's the sculpture gardens thing. It's like weird and artsy and like super like affirming and we'll pay you 15, 000. I was like. I knew it! Like, I knew it! It's coming! it's that karma, it's that life, it's that whatever you want to say it is. Like, you want to do what makes you, you. Because you'll Stephen: I do, I love it. And I keep bringing this up because I just There's two sides to this. One is that. It's the universe. It's the self fulfilling part of it. There's just the sustainability of all of it. And then there's the other thing. You can take all the emotion out of it and just go, it's also gonna just be good business. Like every, [01:04:00] everything's gonna work out better for you in terms of your PR, in terms of your stories, in terms of your opportunities. Matt: as well just stick with it. If you've decided that this is how you're going to do it, then just stick with it. Because, who knows, at least no one will ever tell, will ever be able to say that you're not real. And, cause then you can change your mind. That's the beautiful thing about being yourself all the time. If your mind is changed, you just let people know. then you can move the other way. cause then they'll be like, well, they've never lied to us before. Stephen: So I didn't finish, this brand guide, it's got questions. It helps people out. I will put the link in the show notes, but it's healthy productions. com slash craft your brand and it's free. So it's just a series of questions. It will help you start to figure it out. If you're like, I don't even know where to start. It's just, these are good prompts to help you get on your Matt: Anything that gets your mind moving in Stephen: The only other thing we should cover about branding, because we've, we've gone through sort of the philosophy and like how to show yourself online and stuff, but I also know you have a strong brand on stage, the visuals. Matt: Yes. Stephen: [01:05:00] Talk people through like, why? Matt: okay. So ever since whoever that person was figured out that you could Copy discs by like, putting a sharpie around it and you could get away with copying discs. just selling music was no longer going to be what Sustained do. We live in a world where that's no longer sustainable. It just is. You get a cent of a cent of a cent for even the best song. Like, Purple Rain makes the same amount of money per streams that might be changing. but still, The concept is, the ship has left, right? The horses are out of the stable. If someone wants your music, they can get it for free. So, what do you do? In the face of that, as a performer, you perform. You give them a spectacle. It's one of the reasons why theater is still a concept, even though we have movies. It's one of the reasons why, professional wrestling is still a thing while we have video games. It's the reason why video games are still a thing even though we have VR. It's because sometimes it's the spectacle that keeps you there. one of my philosophies [01:06:00] is, If you've paid 30 to come see a show when you could have spent that on medicine, like just in general, this or, or just a food or a shirt or something you like, I'm going to make sure that you never regret that. And that means when I step on stage until I leave, you're going to get a performance and performance is not just the music that's being performed. It's how it's being performed, how it looks when it's being performed. what is happening on stage. It is all of that stuff. if I'm getting paid, let's say I'm being paid a thousand dollars, right? I'd rather take home 300 and spend seven on the production of the stage. Because what does that mean? It means I'll get asked back and I made another 300 and I get asked back and I made a new 300 and I get asked back. I mean, another 300. Yeah, I did it. Take me four shows to make what I would have made if I just kind of showed up and just performed and kept all the money for myself? Yeah, probably. But guess what? I've had [01:07:00] four shows. I've now been booked four times and each time the person from the last show is like No, you gotta see it for 20 bucks It's a whole and now I have two more fans than I did the last time and by the fourth show. I have 17, 000 people there as opposed to doing one show for You know 500 people I make a thousand and none of those people want to come back because it was boring Good music or not. and yeah, I'm in a high energy medium. Sure. No, you're, no, you're audience. I'm in a hip hop medium. I'm in pop. So there's a little bit more of pomp and circumstances that get you to that level. But what I mean is that on stage, craft something that people can latch on Stephen: What is the energy transfer? What is the emotional transfer? Whether it's super high energy or super low energy, how can you make the mood more of that Matt: Yes, know what you're trying to convey if you're a singer songwriter and your bit is deep Contemplative [01:08:00] music and that's like your vibe How do you make your stage reflect that if you're performing on another the stage? It's not yours How can you like? Okay. like hey, don't use any of the overhead lights I actually bought some lights to kind of just like I'm gonna be standing here. They Point to me I want to make everything else as muted as possible Like think about that Not just I'll just go up on there and do whatever because my thing is that I don't do anything No, if your style is blank canvas make your background that Don't give any distractions. Don't give anyone else an opportunity to Tell other people who you are And that includes how you're dressed. That's why I said I have a very big, like, no other band members merch, unless it's purposeful, at a show. A lot, I see a lot, and it's just a pet peeve of Stephen: Say that again. Matt: So, for example, if I'm, if you, if I'm playing a show, you're not gonna see an ACDC shirt on me. If I'm playing a, yeah, if I'm playing a show, you're not gonna see, Biggie Smallson my shirt. You won't. [01:09:00] I love those bands. I love those people. But this is my show. I don't want you to think how much cooler another band is right now. Even if you know that this is a cool band. If I wear it, it's a cool band. People know I'm cool. No. It's not the time for that. Nur-D right now. So I want you to think of Nur-D. I don't want you to think of so and so. Now, unless it's purposeful. If, like, the theme of the show is People who stole music, so you're gonna do Elvis. Like, whatever, like, you know what I mean? Like, you're all dressed up as Elvis. Okay, now it's a bit. it's okay if it's a Stephen: it's serving the show. Matt: Because it's serving the show, but you should be confident in yourself. I'm big in a show day outfit. I don't walk in with what I'm going to perform on. Stephen: I think that that's important, and that's something that I say to people too, and I, there's definitely pushback. Now, it's somewhat genre dependent, but not really. Matt: I'd honestly, I'd push back again and say, it shouldn't have to be. Stephen: I agree with you, but I'm trying to make some exceptions, because I'm sure that there's somebody that can say, Well, look at so and so who does this and Matt: Yeah, but [01:10:00] broken clocks twice a day. I mean, yeah, you're probably right. And maybe I just, I don't, I don't know everything, but like, I'm thinking like, if you just were working eight hours on your diet job in the outfit, you're walking on stage on to don't. Stephen: That's, see, that's how I feel. It's like, you should at least elevate or be intentional in some manner. It doesn't mean you need to come into a full flare costume or something like that. Matt: you're not. No one has to be Dolly Parton. Stephen: But it should, be intentional. Like, when I go see a local show, There's a clear difference between the people that have really thought about it and put together something that feels intentional and feels bigger than average. but I think a lot of people hide behind this. For a lot of the same reasons of the social media thing, the vulnerability, all of that. Of just, I just want to blend in. Matt: Yeah, and that's the opposite of your job. even if your thing is that you're muted and you're understated, you're still doing it on stage on a microphone in front of a bunch of people. If you don't want people to notice you, then you're in the wrong profession. That's the job. even bony there. is a Grammy award [01:11:00] winning has to do these things They could not like it, but that's the bit. If you didn't want to be noticed, you wouldn't put your music out there for people to consume it. Strangers. Right? Stan Lee said every comic is somebody's first comic. Every show is somebody's first show. It's like a first date. You don't dress up in dirty sweats and whatever to a first date. Not saying that you have to go put on a tux if that's not who you Stephen: Yeah, exactly. Matt: but like, change your shirt. You were wearing that shirt all day. It's got your lunch stains on it. Just change your shirt to another shirt that you would wear. But at least mentally, you've put on a new shirt, you put on a new pair of pants, you've thought about what you're wearing for these Stephen: That's the main thing. Just think about it. Do you think this is the best representation of you and your look on stage? Most people are just like, whatever, it's just me. And sometimes it works, I guess, but I just think that being intentional, and it's okay to show that you're trying. I think a lot of people are just scared of that, of [01:12:00] like, I don't want people to think I'm taking this too seriously. Matt: and it's like, the idea of don't take yourself too seriously is more about like, not becoming a dick. Stephen: Not holding on to something so tight that you're going to have a tantrum if it Matt: Yeah, Yeah, like that. It's not, it's not about just being like, this isn't important, like your, your music and your presentation is very important. It's just that, you know, if someone comes up to you and says like, Hey, that's an odd thing. You're not going to like hit him with an ice skate or something like, you know what I mean? It's just like, just calm down, but it shouldn't be important to you. and depending on your genre, like as a hip hop artist, I buck a little bit of a convention, because I didn't grow up with money or wanting a whole lot of things. I'm very I don't want a lot. One of the things I say often is like, I have most of what I need. I'm not buying 300, 500 shoes. I'm not doing that. And I know a lot of people in my genre do. I just don't. I just don't. Even though I have the money to, I just don't. It's not the stuff I like, so I don't do it. But, when I [01:13:00] perform, I'm gonna put on an outfit that I plan to wear for the performance. I got these overalls, I love them, and I will put them on for this. You know what I mean? That's the vibe. You gotta do that. Stephen: Well, thanks for going over all this branding stuff. I do think that your brand is extremely great. Very strong. it's so easy to, to tell somebody about you without showing them your music. And that's usually the, meter of like, okay, strong enough. If you don't need your music, then it's, it's strong. Matt: it's the comic book cover of people buy their first comic based off of what it looks like on the front. people into Spider Man without telling them anything that happened to Peter, you're already there. And that's kind of the Stephen: Yeah, definitely. I want to go over one more thing, which just because I think that it's worth people knowing this sort of discussion, you know, we go over your bio got all these wins, all these successes, all of this kind of stuff. And a lot of it's coming to you because , there's this momentum, but obviously you also had to put yourself out there. You had to submit yourself to the first [01:14:00] radio competitions and that sort of thing. How much work goes into chasing opportunities versus them just coming to you? Matt: That's the eternal balance of this. I get a lot of gigs, a lot of things, because people have asked. For me, because they know what kind of show I put on, they know what kind of things that that was because for the first three years of my time, I was just anything and everything, giving 100 really pushing to show that my art is worth it. You're going to get a show and you're going to look around and be like, this is amazing. I have pushed myself for things that I really wanted. It requires vulnerability, which is again, the name of the game. The foundation of all of this is like, I'm just going to ask. The best way to do is to talk to people. Stephen: Yes. Matt: like, actually talk to people about what you do and what you want. my favorite game, I give this out for free all the time. I was literally talking backstage to a young artist about this on the last show I was at. I [01:15:00] said, you know what you do? Be nice to everyone, especially the bartender and whoever's running security. that's the secret sauce. this is what you do. Go up to the bartender, go up to security. You've spent all night being a cool, respectful. On time performer and then you go up to one of them and say, yo, this is such a great venue. I had such a great time. Thank you so much. Who do I talk to about trying to do this again or to be booked here on my own, or whatever the situation may be. They will say, I don't do bookings. But so, and so does you say, thanks, person's name, who I've just learned. I appreciate that very much. Then in your email, you say, Hey person, I was told to talk to this person who works with you told me that I should contact you about. Performing here. Now you have a recommendation from somebody who works at the place you want to go to, and now it's like, you're [01:16:00] not just some person, you're someone a co worker has talked to, and they have nothing but nice things to say about you because you've spent the entire night being kind, respectful, and talented. Stephen: and while you're at it, being nice to the bartender and the security, you can also be nice to every other band that's on the bill. Matt: Every single one. regardless of what your music is, you can have the most filthy, disrespectful, raunchy things on stage. I'm not telling you what to say. I'm not telling you what your art should be. As soon as you walk off stage, however, Thank you very much. It's an honor to be here. I loved this thing that you did in your set. That was really cool. Like, I mean it. Even if you didn't like most of it, find something that you did enjoy. You guys really are locked in. I can tell that you guys love doing this with each other. It's so cool. I hope to get that sort of energy when I Stephen: so much of this business is relationships and who you know, I've been a part of enough shows, I've watched [01:17:00] enough shows where it's just like, the bands don't know each other, they might be on this lineup somehow together, and they just go off in their separate corners, and it's like, be the person goes and introduce yourself, make conversation, make friends with everybody, you never know who's going to pop off next, Matt: Never no. and a rising tide raises all ships. I say this all the time. I want everyone to succeed. I am not one of the people who believes that there's only room for one at the top. I will tell you that this music scene is incredibly talented, I say this all the time. Minneapolis, Minnesota, the Twin Cities, what we have, St. Paul, Minnesota, even the suburbs, shout out Rosemont. We have talented people coming out of here. And if one of us blows up We all blow up because let's say the next, let's say the next Michael Jackson comes out of our community, everybody in their grandmother's going to be, well, what makes this community bring this person up? And now suddenly [01:18:00] everyone's looking. And then they might find you. I love, Terrence Trent Darby.Holding on to you. Oh my god, that song is amazing. And he was out during the same time of Prince and Michael Jackson. They're all, it's the same, you know what I mean? More Stayin in the Time and Prince. one person might be Prince, and that's, it might not be you. But guess what? There is enough here, that if, that person goes up and says, This person's great, boom. Now you've found your fanbase. Now you're going across the world. And now suddenly you've Stephen: Yeah. by being friendly with everybody, you just expand the amount of connections you have, which means you expand your knowledge base. These are people you can ask for advice if they end up getting somewhere that you haven't been yet. there are people that you can tour with. Matt: The amount of times that I've asked artists that have gone further than I've gone, what did you do? Who did you reach out to? Is it okay if pick your brain on this? And because of the relationship, the authentic and serious relationship that we've formed together from just being [01:19:00] kind and being respectful, they'd be like, yeah, sure. Here. Oh, there's our email. I'll actually tell them that you're gonna email them. Stephen: Yeah. Matt: It's huge. Stephen: make or break a career. Matt: could change your life. That can literally change your whole life. Is just one person, the first time I played for First Avenue, right? And I only mention them because they're like, the people, the music people, in our community right now. the first time I, played for them, as Nur-D, I had, Done a show at the fine line. They just bought it. They just bought the fine line I'm opening for the artist buddy. I am still in the shut up and rap phase. I don't have a DJ I have a laptop mic I get told by the people throwing on the show, they're like, Hey, Nur-D we can't really let you into the green room. There's just too many people down there and I know you're performing, but like, you know, like, this is what it is, right? Now, I could have made a stink about it. I really could have. Because half the people down there were just looky loos. People that were, the station wanted to have down there, and they wanted to be cool, and they wanted to hang out with the [01:20:00] big celebrity that had come to do this show. And I was a performer, the green room was for me, but I literally was like, I thought about it and I said, Do I want to invest in the relationships I'm making now? Or do I want, do I want to demand what I think I deserve? And I said, That's fine. I'm going to hang out here. With the crowd and I did I spent the night talking to the bartenders and the security staff at the end of the night After I thanked everybody for their job that they did Because again the bartenders never get thanked by the artists half the time The the sound techs rarely get thanked by the artists half the time and the security almost never get thanked by the artists at the end Of the night so I went through and I made sure I did that well the security person said hey Here's my card. let, so and so from First Avenue know. let them know that I'm, you're reaching out to them. I will make sure you get booked at 7th Street. Because you're amazing, you did a great job. And so I was like, cool, thank you. if it wasn't for me taking the time to be consciously kind, and build relationships, and I still see that security dude regularly, and [01:21:00] I dap him up every time. Cause now I'm making a living off of it. of this. That conversation led to my first show at 7th street that got sold out. My second show at 7th street that got sold out. My times at the main room I get asked to do. That's what that came from. It wasn't my talent. Sure. Cause I came there ready to rep to rip it. And I did all that. My work. Sure. But it was that conversation. It was that relationship that got that foot in the door. Because again, 75 percent of this is getting people on board. It's not talent. Stephen: It's your attitude. Matt: It's your attitude. I know of artists in the, in the cities that are better. than me at most of what I do they're better lyricists. They'll probably be better singers better dance. I know they're better dancers better dancers But they will never make it because that's the hurdle that they can't get over is opening themselves up To be a person in front of other people Stephen: Oh, man, that's so true. [01:22:00] It's so Matt: and that's what will and I know because it gets them frustrated here How do you do it? You've only been around for five years like yeah, but I cut my teeth for seven and I learned that I didn't want to be anything other than authentic and open and honest and vulnerable with this industry because at the end of the day, I feel that my talent is enough. So that's it. Stephen: and so important for people to hear again and again and again, because just hearing it once is probably not enough. it's a hard thing to do. I think everyone struggles with it. I'm sure you even still have to figure out how it keeps fitting back in that it doesn't always Matt: day, every day. Stephen: I think that all that's great. I don't want to keep you here forever. I really, Matt: I could talk about this for the rest of my Stephen: I appreciate your time so much, man. To wrap this up though, let's go into two things. we've covered a lot of things that have gone really well and that you do really well. What's something you want to get better at? Matt: Yes. My weaknesses. Uh, no. Imy growth opportunities, Stephen: Yeah. Just something that you're working at. Like what's, what's next on the horizon for you? Matt: [01:23:00] One of the things that I'm working on is more content where I am visibly present. I will say this, I feel more confident on stage than I do on camera. That's a big thing for me. it's a little bit of body positivity, like things I'm working on, you know, just in general, I am a fat black kid from Rosemount, Minnesota. I was never the ideal. I was never the ideal and I think that scar kept me from being in front of the camera a lot because I just was like, you know, I didn't want to be made fun of and I didn't want, I'm not the sexy artist guy the sometimes I think I have to be in order to do this well. And so I haven't put myself in front of the camera a whole lot. I have some music videos out, but like I don't do it as much as some of my peers do, which is a huge part of it. Showing yourself, being there, taking the time. So that's one of the things I'm working on in the new year and as things go on. It's like, I'm going to be in front of the camera more. You're going to see more of me on mediums, in mediums, you'll Stephen: You, I mean [01:24:00] you, to be clear, you have been doing that to some extent. You're just saying to be, that would be more of the norm. Matt: Yeah, it'll be more. I, I, just do it more. The stuff that I have done is like me, like, shaking and, shivering on my way up there. so to think of it as like, oh, if this is what he's doing, know that he, thinks he should be doing it even more. Because he's just like, ah, I don't want to do this. But I do, because I know it's a part of the job. I'm just looking to continue to grow in that area.another thing that I think I want to work on as I continue in my role, I am very much. Driven by my passion, which is a good thing, but there is a bit of strategic ness that I feel like sometimes you miss, when you're driven by passion, and I'm trying to be better at, like, planning things out ahead of time. I'd be like, I wrote this album, I love it, here you go, and then like, do you have music videos for this? Do you have, flyers, and all the other stuff, and I'm like, Well, no, I just made it and I was really excited so I just shared it because I want you [01:25:00] to hear it because I think it's good and they're like, Oh, it's good. It's fine. It's just that like, if you would have waited and prepped you could have gotten like a whole thing because it's a business. It's and it's a it's a science. If you post it on this day at this time, you'll get this much audience and and taking a little bit of more time to get into the analytics of my brand and be like, Now like strategically doing it as opposed to just here's a new thing And surprise I have a new album out or a new song out and I gave you 24 hours to get ready for it Stephen: Well, I'm excited for you to get to that stage because considering the success you've had without considering those variables, you're going to be excited. It'll be Matt: It's just i'm just I it's something I need to work on I'm excited to like getting to that world more and learn more about it because I it it's the opposite of how my brain works Stephen: we've talked about a few of your, what I call superpowers, one being your branding and your authenticity. but if you were to pass along what you think is your secret to the success you've seen so far, what tip would you leave [01:26:00] people with? Matt: Honestly cultivate the fans that you want for the rest of your life That's the secret. Cultivate the fans that you want for the rest of your life. Because they're going to be with you If you do this right. People have been following the Grateful Dead for how long? You know what I mean? Cultivate the fans you want to see. don't think that quantity is better than quality. Cause it's not. Stephen: Agreed. Matt: It's not it just isn't because quality becomes quantity. If quality is good, like that's just the Stephen: Because there's enough people in the world. Matt: yeah, there's enough people in the world to satisfy that, I keep using Taylor Swift as an example, or even Beyonce as an example, but like, Look at Drake, even. Let's start with that. He got his fanbase. He knows what he wants. People make fun of him for like, the type of music he makes, or the, who he makes his music for, which is young people, which is like people who are like, just turning 20. You know what I mean? That's his, that's his market. But he [01:27:00] Nails it every time for them like for them for the group that he wants to make music for he is nailing it So don't chase after people that you don't want around I am on the outskirts of nerdcore, which is a version of hip hop nerdcore This might be a little bit of a controversial statement for nerdcore people, butthey were selling to a lot of the fans was this is hip hop for everybody who doesn't like gangster stuff, which quickly turned into this is hip hop for anybody who doesn't like black people. Stephen: Ooh. Yeah. Matt: now, Nerdcore is like, why do we have so many Nazi fans? You know what I mean? Like, why do we have so many white supremacist fans? Like, why do we have so many fans that don't like diversity, or aren't kind to women, or people, and they're confused. Like, the artists themselves, they didn't think about it. Because that's what, that's not what they wanted, but they weren't thinking about it. They were just like, people finally like what I'm making, and I'll just take anybody and all these Think about the fans you [01:28:00] want. And cultivate the fans you want forever. Be honest. And say stuff. Especially if you're a man. Especially if you're male identifying. It matters more and more. And we're seeing it. I tell my male peers all the time. If you want women to feel safe at your shows, you have to say stuff like that. And let people know that if they're fans of you, they have to be fans of treating people like this. You have to make it clear because you don't want that happening at your show. And then all of a sudden, like, you are in a controversy. You have to make it clear, like, this is, it is uncomfortable for you to be here. When people say, I hate rap, but I love you. I go like, I don't like that. Don't. Use that language around me because rap is a beautiful art form that has many different things and if you are uncomfortable with like sexism or misogyny and that's why you like me, that's great. That's great. But don't say you don't Stephen: Maybe be a little more specific. Matt: You maybe be a little bit more specific and being very serious about [01:29:00] that because then what do you do? You make it clear that if you're a so and so, if you're a Maple Leaf fan, go back to Maple Leaf person. If you're a Maple Leaf fan, you're going to recycle. Well. And then you know now know that everybody in your fan base knows to do that. And now you have a group of people who are rocking with you that you can just fully invest in and they'll fully invest in you. So make sure you take the time to build the fan base that you want for the rest of your life. It takes a little work, takes a little vulnerability, but when you do that, those people will bring on more people, and those people will bring in more people, and those people will bring in more people, eventually it'll get to the point where you're so big that it's hard to like, really like, fish out certain things, but like, it'll be a lot less work. You won't be finding yourself 20 years down the road being like, Oh my gosh, I'm playing this third place and I don't like any of these people because that's what people then retreat into themselves and then they lose themselves, which is like the worst thing that artists Stephen: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on today, for sharing your [01:30:00] stories, your advice, your insight, man. It's really great. I'm excited for people to hear this. if people aren't already following you or aren't aware of you, where would they connect with you to, to catch a show and to Matt: Yeah. Please, if you like what you hear and you're into like this. Vibe. Give it up. Yeah, there's this, this, like the Vogue, I'm hitting the Vogue. Okay. Nur-Drocks. com is my website, N U R D rocks, like multiple Dwayne Johnsons, it's really easy to find, dot com. also, it's the same thing on all the social media, Nur-Drocks, N U R D rocks. find me, check it out. I post where I'm gonna be, what's happening next? the next biggest thing is the, I don't know when this comes out, but in April, this come. Oh, sweet. So before, so in April 5th and sixth of 2024, I'm performing with the Minnesota Orchestra. We're doing two nights of my music, full orchestral, full symphonic orchestra, pieces of my work. Um, I'm very, very excited. I'm very nervous. but it [01:31:00] is the 100 percent done, totally amazing, completely finished, super dope show. And, um, and I mean that. So, come through and check it out. It'll be really cool. But, again, Nur-D Rocks everywhere. Stephen: me. Let's hang out. Awesome, definitely check 'em out. I'm gonna have all those show notes, all those links in the show notes as well as the free branding guide if that helps you. Let me know. If you like the episode, please send me a message. You can email me or hit us up DMM on a on Secrets from the scene. Matt: Draw a picture so we can put it on the fridge. Laughter. Stephen: I want to know if this helps, and if so, what else you want to learn more about. Until next time, thanks for listening.