Ep. 10: The RIGHT WAY to Book Small Venue Shows with Nick Elstad of Sleeping Jesus and Sweet and Lonely

[00:00:00] Stephen: Welcome to Secrets from the Scene. On today's episode, I have Nick Elstad. He is in the band Sleeping Jesus. Sleeping Jesus is like an indie rock band with hints of other local icons like Hippocampus and Bon Iver, at least in my opinion, on a great band. I can't wait for you to hear them. He also has a solo project called Sweet and Lonely. Nick actively writes for Sync and Licensing as well. But for the last eight or nine years, Nick has been a booking agent for [00:01:00] multiple places, but currently for No Name Bar in Winona. I'm really excited to pick his brain about everything booking so that you can learn what to do and definitely what not to do when you are booking a show. Nick also just finished a home studio build that will help support his busy music career. Please welcome Nick. Thanks for being here, man. So, you know, one thing I was curious about when I first met you and started learning about the band and stuff, it started in Winona. but you live in South Minneapolis. Nick: I do Stephen: why, why Winona? Are you from Winona? Nick: I grew up like 30 minutes, north of Winona. In a small town in Wisconsin. Nelson. And, that was just like, made sense for me to go to school there. Cause I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Kinda putzed around for a few years, [00:02:00] in school, not really knowing. And then decided I wanted to do music when I was like 20, 21. Stephen: Okay. Did you study music? Nick: I did, I studied music business at Winona State and that was kind of like a, it was almost like a split major. It was half business courses and half just regular music school, like theory and being in band and all that stuff. Stephen: Yeah. What's your main instrument? Nick: percussion. Stephen: Okay. tell us about Sleeping Jesus. I did a terrible job in the intro actually saying what Sleeping Jesus has been up to because you guys formed in like 2016. You've released two EPs, two albums by the time this comes out. And the second one is very close around the corner as the time that we're recording this. lots of singles. You've toured across the country. You've got millions of streams. You know, the music's really impressive. What's your role in the band? tell us how it formed, what you're up to. Nick: so my role in the band is I sing and play guitar like in the live band and, I write all the songs and then bring them to the band. But, the Project really started as a solo project. [00:03:00] probably like around 2015 I recorded the first EP that came out called Perennial. And that's where I met, or when I want to state is where I met our drummer Tyler, who is the only other original member of the band, right, who's still in it. And, we started playing shows in like 2016. It kind of started as a, capstone project. While I was in school, I needed to like... Basically just come up with some sort of like creative plan and follow through with it. So this was like my excuse to finish, finish something and put it out. And having met Tyler, he was like, oh, if you ever want someone to drum in the project. And I was like, oh yeah, we could do like a live thing and then met some other guys in town. And started playing and, soon after that, Andy Bauer, our bassist, joined. That was 2016. his first show was at this theater in La Crosse opening for the band The Staves. So it was like a really big show for us. Yeah, it's funny looking back at that now. But he did great. He's been with us ever since. And [00:04:00] then, Seamus St. Clair joined in on guitar in, like, 2017, I think, before we did, like, a tour. and then Dante De Grazia joined on keys, 2018, 19, before we went to play, like, some Southwest shows. Um,my wife was also in the band at one point. She played keys and sang, and she's on some of the older recordings. Stephen: she got kicked out or what? Nick: kicked out. Yeah. No, no, she just she's so busy with teaching and like all sorts of other things that she does and it was just like Easier for her to step away from it and just like support it in a different way. Stephen: Yeah. Well, you've always got a sub at Nick: Yeah, we've always kind of stuff but yeah, that's kind of how the band started and Yeah, we released a few EPS like you mentioned Trying to think of some other fun things that we did. Yeah Played a whole bunch of shows and, met, our producer, Mike, who did these last two albums with us and one single before that. we met him back in like 2018, I think, and we've been working with him ever since. Stephen: did you meet Nick: we met... [00:05:00] Through, he doesn't own the studio anymore, but his name is Justin Green. He owned Toy Car Studio in Eau Claire. And we just were like, Oh, let's just do a session together and do a song or something. And then he got in touch with Mike about producing the session. And we just kind of hit it off from there and have been making stuff ever Stephen: Yeah, that's how it works. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, you've got a new record coming out Nick: Yep. Stephen: It'll be out when everybody's listening to this. So make sure you go check it out. We'll have that link in the show notes but what you guys have been doing, you know up to this release you're you know How you're promoting it what the Nick: Yeah, so we, did put out a record last year and we wanted to like jump on the ball and get things moving again and put another record out. We're kind of in this like creative spot right now where we're just like, let's put out as much music as possible. so this new record's called Hollywood Smile and it's like eight song. I think it's slightly less than 30 minutes. It's like a short listen. Stephen: hmm. Nick: so we wanted to do something completely 180 from our last record, which was like we recorded at our [00:06:00] houses, we recorded some at Mike's studio, and made this like weird pop record. And for this one we wanted to make something that was like, five of us in a room together. So, I think that's like the whole like, thing that runs throughout it is like, five friends making music together. That's like the vibe we want to give off with it at least. we recorded it at, Magic Barn in Iowa on like a really cool old Neve Council. We had, Alex Proctor, who's a great engineer, come down and do that, and then Mike was there producing, and we did some overdubs in Minneapolis. yeah, we have some songs on it that we're just really proud of. Stephen: The singles that you've been releasing, those are on the Nick: Those will be on the album. Yep, so Ferdie was the first one that one's about our buddy, his name's Shane. He lives in Detroit, but he's kind of like an inspiration to us. He's like a road dog Stephen: Oh, yeah. Nick: and just kind of like the American hero type in a really cool way. And he's a good dude and he was cool with us using his old band names. His, his project was called The Ferdie Mane. So he's just [00:07:00] always Ferdie to us. So that song is kind of like loosely about him, loosely just about a bunch of other stuff. But That yeah, that was like the first song we released. We did a music video for that with our buddy Harrison Made it in Winona with like a bunch of Winona friends. So that was really cool Because Winona was like really special to us Even though I don't live there anymore. It's like the place that made us as a band always definitely like a gonna have a special place in our heart and like we play there all the time still It's not like we're too far away or anything But so it's cool making that video with like a bunch of Winona people and getting to create something with them so yeah, we put that video out and then we just kind of like surprised dropped two new singles like a week ago and Then we've got the record coming out December 4th, and Doing all the normal, social posting and making videos, trying to be TikTok people. But Stephen: you doing Nick: we are kind of, I should say, we're not like, we haven't figured that one out yet. It's, it's a little weird being a 31 year old on TikTok, I think. Stephen: Yeah, I feel that. Nick: But we're [00:08:00] trying to some Stephen: Nothing wrong with it. I mean, there's definitely older people than that on Nick: Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely nothing wrong with it. Just kind of like a weird space to be in and like, Hmm, do I want to be on another social platform doing doing this Stephen: What has the, I'm not terribly active on TikTok, so I haven't, I haven't seen any of these or anything, but how has the experience been? Do you feel like there's a response there? Nick: Yeah, I feel like it's always the most random things that like, catch the algorithm. We haven't had like any like wild successes on TikTok like some bands have. But like, I just Kind of post stuff that I like want to post like there's not really Stephen: Give an example. Nick: like we we're always trying to take like videos of Like when we're touring and stuff, we'll take like random videos of each other and that's kind of what I have been posting on TikTok like real raw moments, although we've done like some stupid skits That's fun, too but I guess for me social media Becomes like a chore and like a thing you have to work at if you're like Constantly thinking about like, oh, what am I going to post next? Or like, does this [00:09:00] fit? I feel like it's easier if you're just like, and maybe it's not the smartest way to do it But at least it's real if you're just like posting raw videos of like Your band yourself and like your sense of humor to me That's what I would rather see I don't want to see like a bunch of meticulously like Planned videos all the time if that makes sense. So Stephen: I think that just comes down to what fits your band's vibe, Nick: right? Yeah. Stephen: raw and just that real kind of, you know, opposite meticulous, like lo fi or whatever, you know, like if that fits, then great. You know, cause that's still just showcasing personality. And that's sort of the idea behind social Nick: Yeah. there's not a wrong way to do it, I don't think. Stephen: you know, but if you are doing the meticulous route I think of there's creators that are sort of curating a certain thing that is entertaining or whatever, and it's, you know, that works too, Nick: Yeah, I think that's cool, too, like, It can be, like, such a vibe, but I guess I would rather put my energy into, like, making music than... I kind of go back and forth, like, every week. I'm like, man, maybe we should just, like, [00:10:00] list together and, like... Only put our music out on Bandcamp or something like that, but I'm also like, yeah, that's probably dumb too. So I'm like always back and forth. I'm like, I don't want to do any social media to like, Oh, I'm having fun at this. So, Stephen: Yeah, well, and that's kind of what I was going to say is ultimately, it doesn't matter what kind of content you make, it just matters that you're making it, you know, in terms of the there's an audience for everything. There's an audience for absolutely every type of personality, style of content, everything. Right. It's more about just picking something that you feel like you can stick with that doesn't feel like a chore that you're going to go like, yeah, I can keep doing this because then at least you're, you know, people are aware that you exist Nick: you want Stephen: if you want that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you're trying to promote something, if you're not trying and you just want to make music and you, you know, then all the power to you. Yeah. I mean, if I didn't have to, you know, run a business or make money, then yeah, I would. Do literally nothing on social media, Nick: Yeah. Stephen: but Nick: I feel like a lot of artists are kind of in that [00:11:00] boat and some people like are amazing at social Stephen: totally, Nick: it's really can be really cool and like fun and engaging. And then I think there's the next person where it's like, yeah, I know you don't want to be doing this, but Stephen: I totally. And I feel like you can also kind of tell sometimes too, which is a bummer. you know, I, I do, you know, I've seen some, some other musicians, other creators that's like, you can tell that like, they figured it out, they figured out what works for them. They're doing something. They enjoy making it. that to me, I'm like inspired by, but I'm also like, Oh, I wish I could figure that out for Nick: Yeah, yeah. Stephen: but you know, there's only one way to do that, which is you got to just make content until you've decided like, Oh yeah, this is actually worth doing. Nick: Yeah, making something you're proud of. Stephen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That feels like it's a win win. Like your audience actually likes it. They want to see it. They're asking for it. And you're then doing the job of like promoting whatever you're trying to promote, you know? I've definitely been on the other side of it. where I've done tons of projects where there's no promotion behind it. And I know how that Nick: And that sucks Stephen: Yeah, I mean no one hears it. [00:12:00] It's just the bottom line. Nick: Yeah, that's, that's where I'm at with a lot of stuff. It's like you put in all that work and it's like, you gotta try to get people to hear it. Like if you're proud of it, like don't be too proud to not promote it too. Stephen: I agree. No, there are people that aren't trying to make it a career. They're just making music because it makes them happy. Don't feel like you have to do anything. If that's not the point for you, you know, I think you just have to ask yourself, like, what do you want out of it? Nick: Yeah. Stephen: But most would like some feedback saying we like your music, you know, and then that's the case. You just have to crack it. You have to keep at it. I think the main thing is that like you're, doing it. You're finding what works for you. Just keep with it. The only thing I would add for anybody that's listening, going like, I'm doing the same thing, you know, is just experiment. don't be afraid to try something new, you know, you might find and say, all right, this is working. But like if a random idea comes up, just go with it until you've got like a serious audience built up. I don't think there's any harm in like, Nick: Even then. Stephen: if something doesn't work, no one's going to watch it. It's the bottom [00:13:00] line. algorithm and no one will see it. So it'll be gone in 24 Nick: Right. Yeah, and especially if it's something you, want to make and put out, like you should just do it. Yeah, it doesn't Stephen: Yeah. See who connects with it, you know, and just keep experimenting. Keep trying. I'm saying this as much for me as anybody like, you know, we, we do some stuff for social media. We're going to have to start doing a lot of stuff for social media for this podcast. Once that, once this comes out, this is still being shot in the pre release time, but, and yeah, it's daunting. It's a lot to figure out, you know, what are we going to do for it, but you just gotta try. Nick: Right. Stephen: That's cool. So outside of doing the social stuff, any other promotional things you guys are aiming to do? Nick: yeah, so we're doing, actually we're throwing our very own festival in Winona for the first time. Yeah, it's gonna be at No Name Bar, which is where we've been playing since the band started. It's where we played our first show, so strong love for that place. It's two nights, December 15th and 16th, [00:14:00] some really cool bands. I'm gonna try to name all of them, and hopefully I get them. Um,Night One. is going to be, so Sleeping Jesus is playing both nights. And then, night one we'll have Humbird, who's an amazing artist, and, the new Salty Dog from Duluth, and then Clay Fulton in the Lost Forty from Rochester. Stephen: right on. And Nick: then, Saturday we will have Mike Munson, who's a legendary Winona artist. the Lavender Project from La Crosse, Charlie Boy from Lacrosse, the Sugar Lads from Winona, which is like a really fun young group of people who are like doing it and having a blast at the same time. and then the Shackletons from Stillwater, and then us. I think that's all nine. yeah, so two nights of music and that's kind of like to celebrate the release of Hollywood smile Records coming out December 4th and then like two weeks later. We're throwing that festival and then we've got Stephen: on Nick: February 2nd, we're headlining the 7th Street entry for the first time. So we're stoked on that We've played there a bunch of times throughout the year, But this is like our very first time doing like the headline [00:15:00] show. So it's gonna feel Stephen: That will feel very cool and congrats on that. That's, that's cool. that'll be a fun night with the, all the bands, you know, doing the festival thing. was it just like, we want to have a big event for this? Is it going to be considered like the release party kind of thing Nick: kind of the release party, and it kind of just coincided with the record coming out. We were like, we've been around for like seven years now. So it's like, we should just have like a little home festival, show some love for Winona, show some love for No Name Bar, like, have a bunch of our friends play with us. And if it goes well, I'm hoping it will, we'll probably keep doing it as long Stephen: that's Nick: can. Yeah. Stephen: Well, that's actually probably a, great segue into the other part of your career, which is booking music. you know, you've been doing this for eight or nine years, I think is what you mentioned for, for booking. Nick: or like, Stephen: What's your title? What's your job title? Nick: there's not much of an official title. I think it's like, yeah, I'd be booking like a booking [00:16:00] booking agent or Stephen: Agent sounds kind of, Nick: Agents is more of what I think of like a band has a booking agent where it's like, now the name's like, talent buyer. That's Stephen: Oh yeah, I Nick: I guess. I'm like the talent buyer for no name. And I work with, Brian and Cynthia who are the owners there now and they're great to work with and kind of, it's more of like a collaborative. process, which is really cool. But yeah, I've been doing that since I don't think I was booking No Name when the band started. So it was probably a little after that, I first started helping with booking with Midwest Music Fest probably in like 2014 or 15 when I was still at school. And I think the first year I did, I was like an internship. Stephen: Okay, Nick: And it was always like a part time. It was never a full time thing but I worked alongside Parker Forsell who used to be the director of Midwest Music Fest Just kind of aided him like booking acts for the festival I think like after I did that for a year I was like hired on as like [00:17:00] booking assistant or I can't remember what the exact title was, but, yeah, still working with Parker and the fest had like gone to a two town festival. So it was Winona, Minnesota for one weekend and then La Crosse, Wisconsin for a different weekend, different times of the year. so it kind of worked, the load doubled and the amount of bands doubled. what I did then was like work with Parker and he worked with like a artist booking board, like they would like suggest bands for the festival. And then he would kind of like look through that and we would look through that and get to decide like who we were going to reach out to and like field the requests that were coming in. so a lot of that was like just communication with back and forth with bands since lot of the artists we'd dealt with were, You know, local, like Minneapolis, Winona, La Crosse, tri state area sort of vibe. And a lot of those bands don't have like booking agents. So it was like dealing directly with the artists themselves. that part of the job was really cool. getting to form bonds with different artists that you maybe look up to. So that was really cool for me. one part that sucked was [00:18:00] like, Sorry, you're not in the festival this year. And that wasn't always really my decision anyway, but I usually got to be one to say it. I think people understand. That's just how it goes. same with me, like, when I'm dealing with Sleeping Jeez and stuff. Like, we don't always get to be in every festival or whatever we want to be in. And, like, we accept that. So that part of the job was, like, not the most fun, but... Like I said, I think most people understood that, yeah. And then just staying and being like the point of contact like up until the weekend and also like checking in the artists, at the festival. So like kind of getting to be there throughout the whole process, like emailing someone six months in advance and like. Sending them and receiving like what you need from them contracts and stage plots and all that stuff And that's kind of where I learned I guess the ropes of talent buying was through the festival. So that was cool Then I stopped working with the festival in like 2020 like basically right when the pandemic started During that time, I had started booking at no name, which I still do, which is really cool. And I also, also booked at the root note and lacrosse for a [00:19:00] little while too, which I no longer do. But, yeah, so I've been booking at no name now for like, five or six years. a lot of that is like dealing with. Like I said, the artists themselves, like we do have agents that reach out for dates, but since Winona is like a smaller town, lot of times it's like they're looking for a Sunday or they're looking for like a Tuesday and, Just like there's not like much of a nightlife scene on the weekdays or Sundays So it's like we pretty much only do shows on Fridays and Saturdays that no name Very rarely will we have like a Thursday night gig or something. It has to kind of just work out perfectly for stuff like that to happen, but Stephen: Yeah, haven't really booked shows or, you know, are just starting to, I think that people would be interested from hearing from somebody that books shows all the time, you know, what that process looks like. what's a good example. What do you expect? What do you like to see? But then also on the other side, what's a bad example? What should you [00:20:00] avoid so that people don't look foolish or, or make mistakes? Nick: An ideal way to book as the booker, what I want to see from a band is like, not a super long email, Stephen: Keep it short. Nick: keep it short, let me know your name, what your band is, where you're from, basically, Give me actual dates that you want to book a lot of people will just be like hey I want to play a show at at the venue, like, and I'm like, cool, but that doesn't really, you know, we need to, Stephen: Let's move this along. Nick: yeah, let's move it along. Like, so send some dates that you like hope will work out. And also like three to four months in advance is like perfect amount of time. I think, especially for like a smaller venue, I know there are like bigger artists who are, you know, they book out like a year in advance or more. And that's just kind of, and sometimes I'll get. Emails like asking about dates a year from now and it's just like really not how we operate. It's a little too far. So yeah, just like a simple email with the dates you want and then a link to your social media, whatever one you post on, most frequently. A lot of times Instagram is the best, [00:21:00] and a link to stream your music, like Bandcamp is great because you don't need to have like a subscription to listen. You can just click through and like here. What you want to hear right away and like it's a bonus to have a live video if you have like Stephen: like a YouTube link Nick: Yeah, like a YouTube link to a live video like that's a great bonus, but also it's like not needed you can kind of see by like hearing the music and Seeing what the social media presence looks like, it's like, basically, I just want to know that they're, like, trying. Like, not everything has to be perfect, just that you're, like, trying to do the thing and, like, taking it seriously. Like, you've posted about shows in the past, like, cause that can be really frustrating, I think, for everybody involved if, like, the artist isn't also promoting the show. and I guess that's the thing, like, after you've been booked, also what should be included in the email is maybe potential bands that you want to pair up with. some venues don't really help with like booking support acts. [00:22:00] I do. because there's like a small pool in Winona in that area. So it's like, we kind of know all the... bands that are playing. We try to spread them out so they're not playing all the time. but like I'm always down to help, find a, support artist or a band for them to team up with. But if they've done some research ahead of time, that can be like super helpful too. Like, hey, we know about this band or this band and we'd be interested in pairing up for the show. That can be helpful. Stephen: yeah, absolutely. So it sounds like the email, you know, keep it short and to the point. Nick: Mm Stephen: Who you are, where you're from, who your band is, and then links to your social media. one that you use the most or the one that's got the most attention. a link to your music, of course. Bonus points if it's not a streaming service, so that whoever you're sending it to doesn't have to have a subscription. So Bandcamp is a great site for that. And then if you have good live footage, include a YouTube link to that as well. And then don't forget I guess for most clubs, I was gonna say if you're playing with other bands, but most of the time you are. It's not a whole lot of times you're gonna have the whole night. so don't forget to include who [00:23:00] you would like to play with if you're bringing other supports, if you know, local support, or if you need help with that, then just putting that out there right away so that, that all the information that the person needs is an email. Number one. Nick: that out there right away. that all needs is an email Stephen: Realistic about what your draw is. Cause that's important The venue needs to have people in there to make it work. How big is no name bar. What's the Nick: it's like 150 cap. Stephen: But if you're from Minneapolis and no one knows you in Winona, you need to think about that to make sure that you're going to be able to pull people down there. You know? are there regulars at no name? Nick: There is like a regular crowd but like it always helps to have like a local band on that's one of the hard things as a booker and Winona is like sometimes there's not enough local bands to go around and with the college in town I'm always like hopeful that there's gonna be more original bands coming out of there and some years there is and some years there isn't. It's always a crapshoot. Stephen: [00:24:00] on the flip side, you know, we've kind of said what to do, but walk through some common mistakes that you see or things that are just easily avoidable or You know the etiquette side of stuff of like, What's the most common problem that you see when people contact you? Nick: One thing can be, like, not giving enough time in between your emails. I try to be good about responding back to everybody and I think most bookers do, but sometimes, like, They need, like, some time to get back to things, or like, potentially other dates that are in the works, so you just gotta be patient not emailing back, like, every three days. That can be, like, very annoying, I think. Stephen: Yeah, right Nick: And most people are pretty good about that, but sometimes it's just like, okay, I'm seeing your emails, but I need, like, some time to, like, figure out if this is, Stephen: There's other things pending. Nick: And like we'll give artists holds and stuff like that, but you know, some venues they're doing like a bunch of holds and like have this very like structured system where it's like, we try to keep like just a couple things, potential things for a specific date try to move those along. Like if someone's taking too [00:25:00] long, it's like, okay, we got to. take what we can, what's going to work out. Stephen: What's a an ideal minimum draw at? No name Nick: At what point do you go? This was not successful it's hard because we're, booking just Friday and Saturday nights. So it's like, you know, we want to see at least like 75, 80 people in there. Stephen: Yeah, Nick: And I think anything below that, like it happens, yeah, I think that's like a good, if your first time playing and you get 70 people there, like, that's a good starting point. Stephen: Yeah, that's, that's where you go, yes, we will have you back Nick: Yeah. and like, like sometimes it just works out. There's other stuff happening in the community and it's like a small group of people that do go out to shows. So it's like, we also try to be understanding of like, Oh yeah, you were amazing. We're sorry. There weren't more people here for you. Like, I hope they'll come back like, and we'll get you with a different. local band and make sure that the next time you come is like successful Stephen: Yeah, that's Nick: So I think that's like one thing for bands who are like maybe haven't played out of the city Stephen: Okay. Nick: Who are like trying to dip their toes in some other [00:26:00] markets is like being open to the fact that like, this might not go great this time, but like let's give another shot because that's just the way it goes sometimes Stephen: I understand. okay, let's say a band reaches out. It's their first show or it's close to their first show. They're excited. Maybe it's their first show out of town. Maybe they're a Minneapolis based band. They want to go play Winona. You like their stuff, social media looks okay, what should the band do next steps after the show's been booked to help promote an out of town show? Nick: getting a flyer ready immediately is great. I know it seems kind of old school, but like, don't think most bands if you have friends in like Winona or wherever you're going to play, like trying to convince them to like hang some flyers around town for you, like that can be huge. Like in just getting like a little chatter going around the show. being in a band myself, we try to run like targeted ads. In cities that we're playing in on social media and like sometimes I'm like, oh my god I don't know if this is worth it but like even just trying like [00:27:00] 10 or something like that to see if it like Makes any difference can be really helpful Getting in touch with like the local radio station, KQAL in Winona And they're like super good about promoting local artists. So like you can get in touch with them anytime, send them your music and like, they'll probably play it like, and talk about your show leading up to it if like you give them enough time. And and just being like active on socials about it. some shows there isn't like a local support on and that can be a little tricky to get like word going around town but if you got a local band on your bill with you like giving them a little nudge if they haven't been posting about it and like collaborating with them on like an Instagram reel or like a tick tock to be like let's make a video together and post it at the same time like if it's a stupid idea or whatever but that can help. Stephen: yeah, exactly. Cause then it might hit the right audience then at least versus, if you're not paying for ads, you don't know who's seeing your content and it might not be people that are in that area. So that's why paying and just targeting so that you can make sure that the fans that you do have, maybe your friends in that area, see [00:28:00] it, that's smart. Or yes, collaborate with the other group. That's there. Nick: papers and like usually they're pretty good about like if you send them a press release about something they will they will share it Nick: so like just doing little things like that might take you like 20 minutes but if it gets an extra five people in the door like cool that's great yeah Stephen: So, you know, let's say the show goes off. It's successful. Is there any followup afterwards? Nick: not usually. Like, usually bands are paid out, like, the day of the show. Winona being a smaller market, it can be like, a little tricky with like, cover charges. so cover charges are like, usually pretty low, like 5. And then once a band has like, proven themselves, they can start. maybe 7, 10, which is like, seems really low compared to Minneapolis. Cause like, I do see shows for like 10 bucks in Minneapolis, but that's on the lower side Stephen: low side Nick: Yeah. So it's like Winona in that [00:29:00] way is kind of a little behind, but like, it's also like a cool market. It's a cool town. Like, I think it's worthwhile to play. Towns like Winona, being in a band, like, that's where you can really build, like, real bonds with, like, fans. I've noticed, like, when we've played smaller cities, they're usually more hyped about what we're doing because they're starved for... And it just can be like amazing for both fans of music and the musicians themselves beneficial. Stephen: you know, you've toured across the country with sleeping Jesus. Like, how do you guys go about setting up those venues and, deciding where you're going to play? Nick: Yeah. so we've done it a couple different ways. three main ways. when I first started booking for Sleeping Jesus, I was like, we got to get into these cool venues. So I was like hitting up the venues and like that can be like an extremely impossible tasks like Going into a market that no one knows you and like trying to book these venues like sometimes it does work but most of the time like you're not getting an email back and so pretty quickly realized that like the best way to go about booking shows is [00:30:00] Reaching out to cool and similar bands and those markets you want to play and being like you want to get something together with us like we can return the favor back in Minnesota anytime And just being a good person about it and then following up on that, if a band does you a favor and helps you book a show, get in touch with a venue, like return that favor, if they want to come back to your hometown, like, that's really important. And I think as bands who book themselves, it's like, how the like wheel keeps turning around because otherwise there's like no support for it. You know what I mean? And, and then I guess the third way. Most recently we worked with, a guy down we did some shows in Texas and Oklahoma and he helped us book So kind of like a booking agent, I guess, but not, not really like in the traditional sense of like they're booking all of our shows. It was just like a specific run. Yeah. So we're starting to like dip our toes into that world of like other people booking our stuff, which is nice for me. Stephen: you guys give him a cut of proceeds? Nick: and then he just gets a cut of you know, right off the top. So [00:31:00] you're, you're losing out on some money, but you're gaining it back in time, which is like everything. Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up because it was actually a point that I wanted to make earlier, which is, you know, if you've, if you've started to play some shows, I think these tips can be really helpful. You want to start getting out of town or, maybe the first few shows you did weren't necessarily your shows and now you're trying to do it yourself, but if it is literally like going to be your first show, then there's a part of me that kind of, and maybe you can feel free to agree or disagree, but I kind of think like, yeah, your first step isn't. to go to the venue is to go to another band and ask, can I play at your show? Nick: 100%. Stephen: if it's your first show, you shouldn't probably be the one in charge of booking it. I think that the, best way into this. world and understanding it is to be invited to play with somebody else. And a lot of that just comes from your, your network, your relationships, going out to show supporting other artists. and eventually you get your turn where your band is going to be the opening slot for somebody, and that's where it [00:32:00] starts. Nick: Yeah, I would say don't be afraid to reach out to bands in your local scene that you admire, and just being like, yo, can we open up for you guys sometime? Like, it doesn't have to be like a huge show, but just like, getting that chance is huge. Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. And that can be daunting too if you don't know where you're going to start, but it is important that you get out and support other people too and go to the venues that you want to play at. Like, have you been there before? Have you gone to shows there? You know, obviously if it's out of town, that's different, but, you know, I think that that's really the starting point. I don't know about you, but. I'm sure your first show is probably opening up for somebody else too, right? Nick: Actually, our first show wasn't, but I feel like Winona is a different beast because like we, we had friends there. So it was like, Stephen: network is already there Nick: yeah, our network was kind of already there. So we, I think we played last and like, it was kind of our, it was like an EP release show was our first show, but that's definitely not how things normally go. Like, and then we started [00:33:00] playing in Minneapolis where we were like. opening for a lot of different bands at like 7th Street Entry or 331 Club and stuff like that. So it's like, yeah, much more normal to just like open when you're starting out. Yeah. Stephen: do you find it helpful from the venue standpoint, if somebody contacts you saying, Hey, we would like to be an opening act at your band or at your venue, Nick: Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't hurt. Like I said, it's always nice to have like, some day actual dates, Stephen: even if you want to just be a supporting act? Nick: yeah, that, like I said, it's nice to have the dates, but. Like you're saying, being an opening act, or like, knowing that, going into it, like, hey, we want to like, just open up a show sometime, like, then I don't mind it being like, just like an email, like, hey, I'm getting on your radar Stephen: Exactly. That's kind of what I Nick: That's totally cool. And I do have people reach out to me like that. And I try to keep those in the back of my head. Like, okay, they want to come down. They want to try, try this out or whatever. Like, I think that's definitely a good thing to do. Yeah. Stephen: Is there anything that you [00:34:00] think is important for people to know about the whole booking process before we move on? Nick: no, I think we covered it just like going into it, realizing that as a band, like you're going to have to promote, I think there's like this notion, maybe it's like an old school thing that like the promoter is going to like. make sure this show is off the hooks and they're gonna bring in a bunch of people for us and that's just so not the case and there are some venues who are better at promotion than others obviously, but like Ultimately, it comes down to like the band and people knowing the bands like that's what's gonna bring people in the door. Yeah Stephen: Yeah. Be prepared to do the work or you're going to play for nobody. Nick: Yep. And sometimes you do the work and play for nobody, like, that's okay too. Like, as long as you take it as a learning step. And like, that sucks because like, doing these things costs money. not everybody has access to that. it's a hard place to come from. Stephen: as long as you learn from it, at least something is gained, you know, and you can try a new strategy next time or whatever. I am curious to move on and learn a little bit more about your [00:35:00] solo project, Sweet and Lonely. Where did it begin? Nick: Sweet and Lonely started in 2020. It was a pandemic baby. Like, I think a lot of musicians were like, wanting to try out something different with this extra time they had. initially started. I was like, maybe I should make lo fi beats. that seems fun. So I like did. I put out like a song that was just an instrumental and I was like, cool, but then like I was like starting to create from these displays of like, being inspired by like, sort of like the indie hip hop and lo fi thing. I started making more instrumentals like that, but then I just realized I wanted to sing on them. So I was like, okay, I guess this is just a, another project where I'm going to sing, which was cool. It was, it was fun. And like with sleeping Jesus, a lot of the songs came from like me sitting with an acoustic guitar or at a keyboard and like writing them out like that, with. the idea of what maybe the rest of the track was going to sound like in my head.[00:36:00] But with Sweet and Lonely, it was much more beat oriented. So I was like, coming up with like, bass, drums, keys, guitar, like, before I even think of what the song is going to be. And then I would kind of like manipulate stuff from there. So I came at it with like a different approach. And I think that's what made it sound different than what I do with Sleeping Jesus. Stephen: Different songwriting process, Nick: Yeah, different songwriting process. And that was like really freeing and cool. I go back and forth now. Like sometimes I want to just write with an acoustic guitar. That's like the mindset I've been in for like the last year, and I'm sure I'll jump back to like that beat making process start writing like that again, too. Stephen: Yeah. What did you first start making beats on? Nick: Ableton. my experience with production is kind of like, not a very professional one. started out I had studio one, I made. Jesus EP back in 2015 on that because I just didn't really have a network. And I was like, I guess I'm just going to like, I want to make something. I'm just going to do it, [00:37:00] even though I don't really know what I'm doing. I didn't know what a compressor did. So I remember like leveling vocals by like drawing in. Stephen: It's not wrong. You can do it that way. Nick: yeah. So it's like, that's how I started out. And then like, I really didn't care about. Production for like the next like four years. I was like, whatever. I did some stuff at it studio, some studios and stuff, like I was more focused on the songwriting and the songs and what the guitar was going to sound like or whatever, like the producing side of things. But I was not thinking like in an engineer's Stephen: Yeah. Nick: fast forward to like 2019, 2020, I think I was like, Hmm, I should like figure out some of this stuff. I got away from studio one and got into Ableton. Basically just by, like, watching YouTube videos on how to do and use the program. I took, like, an online class for it, too. And that kind of, like, got me kick started and, like, really stoked. And, yeah, definitely.I can't remember the name of the class. but the producer's name is Andrew [00:38:00] Wong. I don't know if you know who that is. Ableton guy. Stephen: it sounds familiar. I don't use Ableton, so I don't know if I've seen his Nick: that was like really inspiring for me to like learn how to do stuff like how to use compressors and all that stuff that you need or, you know, should maybe use to make your songs. so yeah, I started, started making beats in Ableton and then just got more and more into it as the pandemic started and like started to take it even more seriously. And, just experimenting. automation and all that cool stuff that like can make a song special. Stephen: definitely. And you have now used those skills and more. I'm sure to just finished a home studio build, Nick: Yeah. Yeah, it's like an old garage. It might be like a hundred years old. I'm not really sure but it was like pretty scary looking Stephen: Scary, like structurally, like, is Nick: A little structurally, but like we, we got it checked out, like it's cool, but it was just like moldy and damp and, but like we cleaned [00:39:00] everything up and like sealed it. And then we had a guy we took down the garage door and like he built, built out the wall. It's like a 20 by 10 space. And my dad and I did the sheet rock and dry wall. So that was cool. now it's just like unrecognizable. compared to what it was. and I've only been in there for like basically like a month maybe tops. So it's been really cool to have like my own zone. I'll be able to record drums and basically have room to have people over now and like have, have my band over to do demos and recordings. And so it's kind of a fun new chapter. Stephen: That is awesome. obviously there's a huge range of home setups from, you know, the bare minimum to, you know, technically this is a home setup that we're sitting in, you know, which is, on the more extravagant end of a home setup. But having anything, even if it is on the, on the more minimal side is so helpful for the songwriting processes, creating demos, getting ideas captured. you know, if you have interest in the production side, [00:40:00] depending on the types of music you're working in and that sort of thing, it can be really helpful to be able to push some of that along to capture the tone or the direction of a song at the very least. and then obviously if you have. engineering capabilities. And you start to invest in gear and that kind of stuff. You can actually be self recording entirely. is that sort of the goal? Do you want to be able to self record entirely? Nick: Yeah, I think so. I mean, that's what I do with, with like the Sweet and Lonely stuff is entirely recorded, mixed and mastered by me. So it's like, I can do it. It just depends on what outcome we want from things. But I think like, yeah, with the band now it's like, We all kind of do some self recording too. So it's like, I think next step is probably us making just a record. Yeah. And just seeing what we can do. And like, we've talked about that a little bit, like, let's just make what we can. let's make the best thing we can. If we're not happy with it, like we'll outsource it, do what we need to do. But like, let's just Stephen: I mean, the odds are you'll be able to capture something that's good enough. If you don't like your own [00:41:00] mixes, you can just outsource that and they'll be able to. I mean, I get, I get home recordings often and it's, you know, partly because maybe they couldn't get it to where they hear it in their head, but also. Sometimes you just need somebody else to chip in and, and get away from the project and have somebody that has hearing it for the first time can say, this is what works and this is what doesn't work. So just that outside opinion can be really helpful for the creative process for some people. And some people doing it all the way through is the creative process. That's what they're going for. And it, and every project might be different, Nick: And sometimes it's a financial thing. Like, like when I, with the Sweet and Lonely stuff, I kind of try to keep it bare bones. the last album art I didn't, didn't do on my own, or like single art I didn't do on my own, but I think everything up until then I pretty much like, done on my own with the help. of, uh, photographer friend, but like trying to do as much as I can on my own was kind of the point of that project. Whereas with Sleeping Jesus, it's like we were trying to, you know, we make stuff with a lot of different artists, visual [00:42:00] artists, and, work with a videographer a lot and we work with. a producer and an engineer and a different mastering engineer and stuff like that. So, but I think we're going to try to, yeah, I think trying to bring it back into like in house is going to be kind of a fun next step for us to try out at least. Stephen: Yeah. Well, good luck with that. You know, it's fun. It's another challenge and at least the skills you develop will be useful. I'm curious when you're creating, you know, you're in your garage studio now and you're, you're making stuff. What in your mind makes a new creation sweet and lonely or sleeping Jesus? Nick: Yeah, that's a good question. actually there's a song right now that I think is probably Sleeping Jesus, but We, I played One Sweet and Lonely Show back in the summer and we played that song. So it's like, there is like, this sort of uh, crossover that I'm not sure of sometimes. But I think usually it comes down to that process for me of like, this was created from like a music point first. as a recording [00:43:00] first, and then like, I weaved it into a song, whereas with Sleeping Jesus I'm more like, intentional about writing a song with these chords and changes or whatever. Stephen: Okay. Yeah. But I'm sure there's just gray area too. Like Nick: Yeah, there is gray area, but then it's also like bringing it to the, if I bring something, a song to the band, then it's kind of like, Oh, this is a sleeping Jesus song. Cause they're going to do, everybody kind of does their own thing. that was definitely a learning curve for me. being open to others ideas. Like, and I always try, I've gotten a lot better, I think, at it. but like right away, it's hard to let go of something because you have a certain sound you want it to, but I think it's, can be so fulfilling to have others like, have their input and their ideas in a song, like it. Become something magical then. Cause there's like lot of people out there doing their own solo producing thing, solo project. And like, a lot of times you can tell it was where it's like a band is kind of an impossible thing because it's like all these people coming together with all these ideas and like. Yeah, I don't know just [00:44:00] bands in general I think they're kind of magic because like it's something that people probably shouldn't do because it's a lot of work and it's like it's something you don't usually make money on and it's like but it's like everybody's like into it and They want to make the best thing they can and I just think that's really cool and special. Stephen: Absolutely, the experience of being in a band is like none other. The type of relationships, the type of experiences are, they're unique. Nick: Yeah, it's Stephen: Yeah absolutely. And there's compromise in the music. You know, you have all these different influences, different backgrounds and compromise, generally at least. Nick: compromise. Yeah Stephen: there's a time and a place for both, right? There's a time and a place where that solo creative needs to just see it through to the end. And there's time and a place to collaborate wherever you're at is fine, you know, ideally you can try both. Nick: Yeah. That's what I'm doing, Stephen: You know, that you create a life where you have the flexibility to do both. Sometimes you're working with, maybe outside producers, studios, mastering engineers. Sometimes you're doing [00:45:00] it in house. the skills overlap. You can learn from each other. important thing is, is that it's just sustainable and that you feel good about the art. Yeah. Cool. But I feel like we've covered a lot about this today. one thing I've been trying to ask people at the end of every episode is, you know, to basically give me your secret what's been working for you. essentially what I want to do is. Pry out an insight that you think is really helpful, particularly for people that are just getting started or are, you know, in the early stages that you think, I wish I would've known Nick: in the early stages that you think, man, that, I I would have known. To an extent, but like, I think you also have to not care within that. Like you have to be open to making mistakes and just like throwing stuff at the wall without being like, ah, I need this to be like, the song that's going to like change things. Like, I think that mindset can be dangerous and like also stifling. And I think it's a lot more freeing to just like [00:46:00] make stuff without expectations and because you want to make it. Stephen: think that's great. I think that's a helpful reminder, probably for anybody that's trying really hard and it's hard, you know, it's, it's a balance, right? Because it's. you're taking it seriously. It means something to you, but how do you push yourself to really go for something, but hold on loosely at the Nick: Yeah, Yeah. Stephen: Yeah. I don't know. I, you're probably not a perfect answer to that, but it's just an important reminder that live for another song. Nick: Yeah, it's okay to write bad songs. You don't have to put them out. Like, just do it. Stephen: And it's okay if something doesn't go well, you know, just do it again, just put another one out, you know, I find myself having similar conversations with artists sometimes where I can tell, like you're hung up on this or on revision number seven or whatever. And, you know, it's okay to want to get it right, to get it in your head and go see it through and not give up on an idea. That's okay. sometimes that's where it's coming from. So no judgment. And, but sometimes it's like, version one was fine and just write another song. Nick: Yeah, [00:47:00] yeah. Let it let the idea be what it is. Yeah, trying not to make some make something into something that's Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. Live for the next one. And where that line is, it's different for everybody. So, you know, no advice there. Good luck. But, you know, just reflect and try to find a healthy balance. Nick: Agreed. Stephen: Cool. Well, if people want to connect with you, listen to the band, where do they find you? Where do you want to send people? Nick: Sure. so. putting out a lot of music with Sleeping Jesus so you can find us on Sleeping Jesus Music on Instagram or Sleeping Jesus on Spotify or Bandcamp. also from time to time releasing some Sweet and Lonely stuff so you can probably just Google that also kind of not really like too official of a thing but like All of that music is gonna be coming out under, like, this umbrella that's called The Garden Shed. And that's kinda my home, gonna be my home studio and my... Basically just a base for all my creative things to exist. Stephen: Like a collective of some Nick: Yeah, it's like a Stephen: Yeah. Will other people's music be on that, or just yours? Nick: now it's just mine, but you never know. Like, it's kinda gonna [00:48:00] serve as a label. It's kinda gonna serve as, like, a production house. But it's not like a, super official thing. Yeah. Stephen: Well, good luck with all of that. I will throw all of those links in the show notes so people can find that easy. And for everyone that's watching on YouTube or listening along in their favorite podcast app, I would appreciate it if you let us know what you thought of the episode. you know, I'm still experimenting, still finding my way through this. thing and feedback really helps. So you can send me an email, steven at secrets from the scene. com. I'll put that in the show notes or hit us up on Instagram or anywhere you can find us and just let us know. if you have suggestions for guests or other topics, that's really helpful too. But thanks once again to Nick definitely check out his band and his solo stuff. It's been great talking with you. Nick: Likewise, thanks so much for having me. [00:49:00]